casino integrity

[Vman96]

Or, just maybe, a certain set of people have better than average luck when they start playing. These people are the ones most likely to return to casinos as they won money. At some point their luck runs out and they are getting average to bad luck. That's when they start to doubt the honesty of the casinos.

I do think this happens a decent amount. Sadly, I didn't even start out with good luck and still got sucked into liking this game...lol

[Tedlark]

  DaBurglar wrote that "State Gaming Boards" are in place to protect both: the player and the casino and I politely disagree.   States put legislation in place to protect the player. They would not protect the casinos because if they do pull a casino's license I'm pretty sure there would be another casino to come along and take the place of the one that got its license taken away.    In Illinois for example; there are a set number of casino licenses granted. No more unless legislation passes to increase the number of casino licenses. The vetting process for acquiring a casino license is not something that happens overnight and if a casino loses their license then its their tough luck. One license was given up several years ago and the process to grant a new licensee also took several years. This was because of litigations brought on by various parties involved.

[olds442jetaway]

[QUOTE=shadowman]

Or, just maybe, a certain set of people have better than average luck when they start playing. These people are the ones most likely to return to casinos as they won money. At some point their luck runs out and they are getting average to bad luck. That's when they start to doubt the honesty of the casinos.

I do think this happens a decent amount. Sadly, I didn't even start out with good luck and still got sucked into liking this game...lol[/QUOTE]

    Join the club there Vman. Unfortunately, I joined the club in 1992 and that was just the CT. Chapter. Before that, Atlantic City, Ct. Jai Alai, Ct. Dogs, and scaling baseball cards and marbles for pennies back in the 1950's. . By far, vp is the most enticing. That said, OK....no do I still have my marbles jokes. . Actually, I do the nice ceam and colored swirl ones. Long before Cat Eye marbles came on the scene. A prize shooter marble was like getting dealt Aces with a kicker!!!

[DaBurglar]

  DaBurglar wrote that "State Gaming Boards" are in place to protect both: the player and the casino and I politely disagree.   States put legislation in place to protect the player. They would not protect the casinos because if they do pull a casino's license I'm pretty sure there would be another casino to come along and take the place of the one that got its license taken away.    In Illinois for example; there are a set number of casino licenses granted. No more unless legislation passes to increase the number of casino licenses. The vetting process for acquiring a casino license is not something that happens overnight and if a casino loses their license then its their tough luck. One license was given up several years ago and the process to grant a new licensee also took several years. This was because of litigations brought on by various parties involved. Oh well thanks for being polite.....too bad you couldnt be put out to do so in your other two posts in this thread prior to this one.......once again hypocrisy (And thanks forvalidating my point about the "process" even though you did not map it out....your point about YEARS of litigation only reinforces what I AM SAYING.)  And I was not singling you OUT to be a snot, I was making this point becaus eYOU have said numerous times previously that YOU dont buy into this theory that it is harder to win....ok fine.   But dont pretend that I am the ONLY one saying this or who has in fact experienced this because MANY other people here have said it, HENCE my use of WE.....and the only NEEDY one here is you, in your NEED to focus on me and what I say.   And obviously you cant read between the lines because I also clearly say that, in all honesty, I have no REAL proof outside of what I myself experience and what I see others experience....that's it.    You take me much more seriously than I do myself.....If I truly believed I had ZERO chance then yes, of course, I'd never play again.    But even "rigged" machines spit out winners once in a while.

[DaBurglar]

If one goes back into the archives they can find other threads just like this one. In fact, I've heard the same line for years and years ... "the casinos don't pay back like they used to". Funny how players that started playing even after others have made this comment are now making similar comments. Do machines recognize new players and give them better results? That's what you have to believe to think this is planned.

Or, just maybe, a certain set of people have better than average luck when they start playing. These people are the ones most likely to return to casinos as they won money. At some point their luck runs out and they are getting average to bad luck. That's when they start to doubt the honesty of the casinos.Welcome back!   Nice to see you've changed your.....oh wait, nevermind.if I recall (and I do have an excellent memory, afterall I went to H......eh nvm)  You are the guy who says he is PROFITABLE EVERY YEAR.     TO borrow some of Tedlark's ample politeness, I'm going to choose not to believe that and assume you are using some extreme definition of profitability calculation (like including all the free parking vouchers in your "pluses" column, or something like that.....which is fine, that's your right, but you really ought to elaborate on such a thing, otherwise you might MISLEAD or give the wrong idea to all the "new, fragile, innocent" players who show up here and read these posts....ask Tedlark, this is an issue he is very concerned with.....)

[Tedlark]

[QUOTE=Tedlark]

  DaBurglar wrote that "State Gaming Boards" are in place to protect both: the player and the casino and I politely disagree.   States put legislation in place to protect the player. They would not protect the casinos because if they do pull a casino's license I'm pretty sure there would be another casino to come along and take the place of the one that got its license taken away.    In Illinois for example; there are a set number of casino licenses granted. No more unless legislation passes to increase the number of casino licenses. The vetting process for acquiring a casino license is not something that happens overnight and if a casino loses their license then its their tough luck. One license was given up several years ago and the process to grant a new licensee also took several years. This was because of litigations brought on by various parties involved. Oh well thanks for being polite.....too bad you couldnt be put out to do so in your other two posts in this thread prior to this one.......once again hypocrisy (And thanks forvalidating my point about the "process" even though you did not map it out....your point about YEARS of litigation only reinforces what I AM SAYING.)  And I was not singling you OUT to be a snot, I was making this point becaus eYOU have said numerous times previously that YOU dont buy into this theory that it is harder to win....ok fine.   But dont pretend that I am the ONLY one saying this or who has in fact experienced this because MANY other people here have said it, HENCE my use of WE.....and the only NEEDY one here is you, in your NEED to focus on me and what I say.   And obviously you cant read between the lines because I also clearly say that, in all honesty, I have no REAL proof outside of what I myself experience and what I see others experience....that's it.    You take me much more seriously than I do myself.....If I truly believed I had ZERO chance then yes, of course, I'd never play again.    But even "rigged" machines spit out winners once in a while.[/QUOTE]
   DaBurglar you little charmer you...   By me saying that the process to award the vacant casino license in Illinois to a different gaming enterprise took several years because of litigation; did not validate what you said in any way. If you know the circumstances regarding this instance then you would also know that this does not validate what you said.   Thank you for the laugh about me not being able to "read between the lines." If you did clearly say something then, I would have no reason to read between the lines. If something is, in fact, clearly stated then a person doesn't need to read between the lines.    So, in your own words; not only can you not catch a break playing video poker on straight machines but you can't even catch a break playing rigged machines either. And, it is you who claimed the rigged machines, not we.

[DaBurglar]

  DaBurglar you little charmer you...   Ted, you big repulsive 650 pound suicidal barbell bully you....If you cant read between the lines that's your problem, your attempts to live in a straight forward black and white world must be very hard, but people (especially on a forum like this) often say things that have multiple interpretations or meanings....OR intentions.The point I made (which you ALWAYS somehow seem to divert or otherwise ignore in your hijacking) was about HOW difficult (or unlikely) it is for a casino to actually LOSE a license, EVEN if it is caught cheating.   the reasons for this are multifold but certainly include the length and cost of potential court litigation involving first proving the cheating, prosecuting the guilty party(ies) and then trying to either revoke or suspend the license.......after that gets all settled, you now (as you correctly pointed out) have at least a couple years or more trying to find another new worthy license recipient to the one who lost it.....during all this time, the state is receiving NO revenue and is instead losing billions......ergo, rather than face this scenario, a state will instead MORE than likely try and bend over backwards to remedy the original license holder's transgression with as little collateral damage and publicity as possible.   This is intuitive and obvious.Now of course, it is POSSIBLE that a casino could do something SO egregious and so untolerable and vile that it is impossible for the state to do nothing else except immediately revoke the license....but I will leave the painting of such a vile egregious scenario to your vividly dour imagination.

[BillyJoe]

[QUOTE=notes1] I am perplexed by billyjoe's posts. On one hand he states his personal experience has not changed over the past 5 years. Yet, he keeps pointing out ways that the newer RNG makes drawing the payoff card more difficult. Maybe, he is correct. A casino does not need to do anything illegal, as they have used legal methods, designed by manufactures to make the returns to the casino higher for them and cost the player more.
The difference, Notes1, for me personally, is Money Management. I know, Bob Dancer is probably throwing up right now if he is reading this, but for me, it helps create (but does not guarantee) a profitable gaming trip.

If I just played and played at VP, the impacts that we have discussed would virtually guarantee losing, probably more now than many years ago. But I do not let a losing session get away from me with regard to my gaming bankroll, and I have learned to recognize a reasonable profitable session when it happens, and stash it. In that way, my VP bankroll has not seen significant changes over the years. [/QUOTE]
OK - the following PROVES nothing, but I thought that I would share it.

While at Four Winds in Michigan last Sunday, in High Limit, the techs were making some changes to the VP machines. I am not sure what they were doing, but there was a guy with them, watching, who had an IGT logo on his shirt.

I sashayed over, introduced myself, and asked if he worked for IGT. He told me that he was a programmer and field inspector. I explained to him how we on this site have differing opinions about how cards are selected in VP, and would he be kind enough to share with me the inner working process of the RNG in an IGT VP machine.

What he described was EXACTLY what I had related earlier in this thread. Older generation VP machines selected 'shadow' cards when the DEAL button is pressed. With the RNG running continuously, the current generation of machines has the DEAL pluck five cards to display, and when DRAW is hit, selects a sub-set of available cards from which to choose replacements for discarded cards, ensuring no duplication.

Once again, he could have been telling me a bald, face lie for all I know. But, I do not know what his motivation would be to explain the process to me in that fashion if it was really something different.

[Tedlark]

DaBurglar there should be no reason for any of us here to read between the lines. Simply state your case with fact and reading between the lines would not be necessary.

As for; multiple interpretations, or meanings, OR intentions, I restmy case.

I do not weigh 650 pounds and I am neither a bully or suicidal.

[notes1]

billyjoe, I believe the conversation you had with the IGT rep to be accurate. I have read that the old machines did have shadow cards, for the draw. It may be some clever folks figured how to read the shadow cards, and the manufacturers adjusted the machines.  I think it is fair to say that some believe in the integrity of casinos, and others, like myself are not so sure. I only know that a casino visit to play VP, costs me more than it did before the economy collaspsed, casino business nose dived and more casinos opened. When money/survival are in play, some people/companies will do things they may not have done before. We have prisons full of honest folks.    Bad luck..maybe. Something else, you know my opinion.