How Much is Enough?

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=notes1]if one has to buy an airplane ticket, rent a car and pay for a hotel
room just to gain a 1 or 2% better paytable and you are a low limit
player, i don't believe it is worth. especially, when there is no
guarantee that some small increase in payouts will happen when you play.[/quote]This all depends upon how much you play, how often you go and how bad the odds are.  If you're looking for an occasional inexpensive vacation, I agree that free casino packages are a nice way to go.  My wife and I use video poker vacations as a way to get away from the office and have some quality time together.  As we got older and had more time and money, we find ourselves playing much more often. When both of you are banging away at a max coin 95% video poker game for three days straight, the odds make a huge difference.  It's so disappointing to hit multiple quad deuces and even a royal flush and come home with a loss.  This is one area where I am in totally agreement with Bob Dancer.  If you think comps are more important than odds, count up how much it's costing you on multiple trips with horrible odds and see if you think it's a bargain.  For us, the so called free trips to the Beau Rivage are definitely not.   

[alpax]

agree 100% that a free room does not compensate for poor paytables. but, one needs to consider the entire package. cherokee has many poor paytable options but when i add in the free room, free food and getting more free slot play than any other casino, in my mind it helps compensate for reduced paytables. also, as opposed to most every other casino i go to, the free play offers i get start at midnight. as a result, i actually get 2 days of offers for one session of play. if one has to buy an airplane ticket, rent a car and pay for a hotel room just to gain a 1 or 2% better paytable and you are a low limit player, i don't believe it is worth. especially, when there is no guarantee that some small increase in payouts will happen when you play.

Travel expenses are a worthy consideration in planning out when and where to play. Mr. Dancer has finally acknowledged this in this week's LVA column regarding a random progressive promotion at the South Point casino.

August 18 2015 Article Link

[QUOTE]
You never know. And it's not without effort to come by this information. The casino is walking distance for very few people, so almost everyone has to invest at least some time and travel expense in getting there.
[/QUOTE]

Travel expenses does deduct from the overall return no matter the outcome of the playing session.

I am not sure what it takes play amount wise to get any travel reimbursement if it is even offered. I think the native state tribal casinos rarely offer any (Tunica is the only one I heard here since the Airport is attached) but Nevada (Reno/Laughlin/Las Vegas) and Atlantic City offer it frequently. I am certain that the MGM mLife properties offer it for the NOIR club holders as a guaranteed benefit (it is invite only and no one knows exactly what it takes to get in, it changes year by year).

Not feasible for quarter players from a mathematical perspective.

Lets say a person plays 6000 rounds of max bet quarters = $7500 coin in.

Thus 1% theoretical edge is $75, so a 97% return game is $225 "average" loss per trip. That will not cover cross country transportation expenses.

However Jimmy Jazz, a three time guest on Gambling With An Edge, has come up with cleaver ways to overcome these travel obstacles to still be able to play in Vegas.

Jimmy Jazz first appearence on Gambling With An Edge

[notes1]

travel expenses may not be a factor in the return of playing casino games, but if you are a low limit player, it sure impacts the overal cost of any gambling session. every cost that i need to pay and every benefit i receive to play is considered when and where i play. you are wrong when it comes to whether 'quarter ' players are offered trips. yesterday, i received an offer to reno for 2, comp plane, hotel for 5 days. i never play more than $1.25 per bet. and, i play over 97% VP. i have gotten this same offer many times. i have multiple offers for AC, biloxi and tunica, all for at least one comp complete trip. i have gone on dozens of these charter trips and they are available in many cities. i am going on a one night trip on the 30th of this month, total cost $30. i won't question your math, but i would gladly welcome an average loss per day of $225 loss. would enjoy a poll of those VP players who go to AC, biloxi and tunica and see what the average loss per day was. the casinos would not be funding these 'flying brink's trucks'' if they did not pay for themselves. b/t/w, these trips have been going on for many decades.

[misterlister]

Travel expenses are meaningless to someone filing as a pro player as he says he does. They're fully deductible directly from income on that schedule C they use. To the rest of us the travel to and from casinos costs something, but it's basically peanuts in the overall scheme of things.

[notes1]

Travel expenses are meaningless to someone filing as a pro player as he says he does. They're fully deductible directly from income on that schedule C they use. To the rest of us the travel to and from casinos costs something, but it's basically peanuts in the overall scheme of things.
 for me, a round trip ticket to vegas is about $400, along with ground transportation, those costs are factor for me.  

[alpax]

travel expenses may not be a factor in the return of playing casino games, but if you are a low limit player, it sure impacts the overal cost of any gambling session. every cost that i need to pay and every benefit i receive to play is considered when and where i play. you are wrong when it comes to whether 'quarter ' players are offered trips. yesterday, i received an offer to reno for 2, comp plane, hotel for 5 days. i never play more than $1.25 per bet. and, i play over 97% VP. i have gotten this same offer many times. i have multiple offers for AC, biloxi and tunica, all for at least one comp complete trip. i have gone on dozens of these charter trips and they are available in many cities. i am going on a one night trip on the 30th of this month, total cost $30. i won't question your math, but i would gladly welcome an average loss per day of $225 loss. would enjoy a poll of those VP players who go to AC, biloxi and tunica and see what the average loss per day was. the casinos would not be funding these 'flying brink's trucks'' if they did not pay for themselves. b/t/w, these trips have been going on for many decades.

I left out some important details in my response.

The best VP 99%+ games exist for quarters on off-strip Vegas properties. Those locations you've mentioned may not have any where better than mid 98% VP. We know that most off strip casinos receive the distinction of being called "locals casino" and I do not think they will offer out of state players airfare/ground travel reimbursement for their business. I did not include getting an airfare to Vegas being the key part.

I am sure the major casinos from the Vegas strip will compete for the business of out of state players to offer these airfare packages to play even lesser games.

Where the 97% comes in is what most places outside of Vegas have for quarter denomination stakes. Unfortunately I've seen 8/5 Jacks or Better, 20-12-10 Deuces Wild, and 9/5 DDB for majority of the places out of the Nevada for quarters so there is where the 97% comes in.

To get to Vegas for some folks, it might cost someone hundreds of dollars alone with their end benefit to play the 99% games (where you can still have a losing session). With that stated, I was going to get at the fact that playing with a 3% edge nearby might be cheaper than the airfare in which I am in agreement with you.

[FloridaPhil]

We are both consistent quarter players that play well over 6 hours a day each and our mail box and email is always full of offers.  Most of these offers are from casinos outside of Nevada well known for their low VP odds.  Biloxi is a nine hour drive from our home in Central Florida.  We have flown on the Beau Rivage charters before and we much prefer to drive.  We like to casino hop and by the time you drive to the airport, pay for parking, rent a car and get bused over to the hotel you may as well drive.  Besides, we enjoy each others company and the quiet time we have together on the trip up and back. Everything changed when Florida casinos decided to do something about the VP odds problem.   I'm sure they felt they could attract players driving across I-10 and it worked.  Right now, the Hollywood Hard Rock has the same quarter deuces wild odds available in Blackhawk Colorado.  Blackhawk is on our "must go" list each spring.  One of the reasons we like it so much is the great Deuce Wild odds. The 3% difference in odds between the Beau Rivage and the Hard Rock is huge and believe me when I say it can amount to much more than the numbers would indicate.  We see the national casino wars as a good thing for players. Competition makes for better odds and better service. We're voting with our feet and dollars.  If more players did this, things would get better and we won't be posting about Cheap Strategies or rigged machines. 

[onemoretry]

Travel expenses are meaningless to someone filing as a pro player as he says he does. They're fully deductible directly from income on that schedule C they use.
Expenses (travel included) do have less impact on a person filing as a professional, but they are far from meaningless.

[notes1]

alpax, i have checked many times, getting travel reimbusement to vegas for low limit player, not available.-been to vegas a number of times. well aware of strip and locals casinos.-a 1or 2% increase in paytables does not guarantee any better performance.  i was responding to your assertion that travel expense is not an important consideration. if the difference between one casino and another with better odds is just a matter of a tank of gas, that is one thing. it is entirely different when one has to pay hundreds of dollars for airfare. when i go to vegas, it is not because i am seeking better odds, it is because all that vegas has to offer. way too much time is spent on this site debating paytables that are just not available for many of us.  

[OTABILL]

For us in metro Phoenix comped rooms in Vegas are worth it for a weekend getaway especially if they are really nice like we are offered at Red Rock. We are single line, $0.25 players. Vegas is a 5-6 hour drive so airline tickets are not worth it since with our car we are mobile and don't have to rent one. Local casinos are all within 45 minutes and we can get some good paytables (Fort McDowell) but the atmospherics are nicer in Vegas.