How much do we still not know?

[DaBurglar]

Who cares if they LOOSEN LOOSEN LOOSEN the paytables if all the machines are rigged?


  Aw c'mon man, I KNOW you are not that unimaginative or simplistic.      When I say LOOSEN, obviously this would encompass/include either "Un-rigging" whatever machines they might actually have rigged;  and/or adjusting the settings of whatever VP machines the casino has that are set to yield a Return-to-player percentage BELOW the RTP% displayed by the paytable of the machine (in other words, adjust the artificially high " dud" rate to what it naturally should be......or hell, adjust it more IN FAVOR of the player temporarily to attract and build up new business;  Remember......these are "SLOT" machines we are talking about!) 

[Onenickelmiracl]

You think about 3OAK on 50 play. Although getting 4OAK on every hand is possible on the draw, I have a feeling  the method might make it impossible for it to happen.One thing about any kind of slot machine or VP, is the actual results are not saved. Nobody can go back a day later and see the spin or the hand. That is suspicious to me because the results can't be audited. Yahoo can save all kinds of information for email, but the casinos can't. It's the same with the surveillance tapes being destroyed.

[DaBurglar]

You think about 3OAK on 50 play. Although getting 4OAK on every hand is possible on the draw, I have a feeling  the method might make it impossible for it to happen.One thing about any kind of slot machine or VP, is the actual results are not saved. Nobody can go back a day later and see the spin or the hand. That is suspicious to me because the results can't be audited. Yahoo can save all kinds of information for email, but the casinos can't. It's the same with the surveillance tapes being destroyed.
 Actually this is not correct, hand history is saved on VP machines and is a technical requirement of casinos by most gaming commissions, with significant difference between various state gaming regs as to how much history needs to be saved and for how long..... In AC, I know that machines can go back at least 24 hours within the actual machine itself, as I have both witnessed this and requested it to be done at the Tropicana and at Trump properties (both of them).   In 2005 in Vegas at Golden Nugget, I had a slot tech look up my playing session hands from about 8 hours earlier to see if I had made a mistake on a hand that was bugging me all through the night.....she opened it up during the early morning wee hours when no one was around (their willingness to honor such requests is more likely to be positive if you ask during NON peak business hours);  she pushed some buttons, turned a key and the printout promptly ensued, and showed I had in fact played the hand correctly unlike my nightmare kept playing in my head. I am sure there must also be some off-floor data storage capacity going on in today's modern casinos.....I have never accessed it but I am certain it exists somehow, somewhere;  there simply is too much riding on what's going on in a casino these days, too much opportunity for error or malfeasance.

[Vman96]

You think about 3OAK on 50 play. Although getting 4OAK on every hand is possible on the draw, I have a feeling  the method might make it impossible for it to happen.One thing about any kind of slot machine or VP, is the actual results are not saved. Nobody can go back a day later and see the spin or the hand. That is suspicious to me because the results can't be audited. Yahoo can save all kinds of information for email, but the casinos can't. It's the same with the surveillance tapes being destroyed.

It can happen, sure, but the odds are:

1 in 357,596,379,890,229,920,085,359,984,432,840,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

The second coming of Jesus is much more likely than that.

And it could be reviewed if it was at least in the last 10 hands. Some machines can even review last 50 rounds. But yes, a machine won't be able to tell you what was hit on Feb. 20, 2012 at 22:55 PST. Given the volume of gaming machine gameplay, it might require a ton of memory for significant audit lengths. A machine should probably do at least 1000 plays for good measure though even if it's not currently legally required.

[Onenickelmiracl]

[didigoftam]

I agree with Roveer
If I know that no matter how perfect i play the game, the hands are predetermined, then why waist my time playing the game. In addition, what doesn't make sense is that HOW can the machine know what cards you will be holding ???
For example, in Southern California THE PECHANGA casino is in Temecula, i have played there 15 times in the past 4 years. After carefully studying my WIN/LOSS statements, I noticed that I have lost over $65,000 in 4 years, and I only have 10 W2G's from those trips. But when I play @ The ARIA hotel in VEGAS, I end up with 30-40 W2G's in a single trip. I play $5 and $10 DDB. This makes me wonder if the machines can be programmed to deal more or less 4 OF KINDS as one of the guys mentioned about seeing a FOUR of a KIND table when the technician opened the machine. I have been searching for this answer for 7 years now, and I can not get an answer, as High stakes VP player, it is very frustrating. The question is not weather the Casino can Rig the machines, but whether they can limit the number of winning hands being dealt, As far as i knew all this time VP is 100% Random, then again, it can not explain my 4 year Loosing streak at the PECHANGA Casino ??? Honestly, I would stop playing VP if I know the answer and i will switch to BLACKJACK.

[Vman96]

Depends on the length of your Pechanga trips mainly vs. the Vegas trips mainly. Considering relevant state laws, I would initially guess you've ran like crap at Pechanga, and run good at Aria. Glad to hear someone ran good at Aria...wasn't me...lol

[onemoretry]

The question is not weather the Casino can Rig the machines, but whether they can limit the number of winning hands being dealt,
Aren't they the same thing?

[didigoftam]

Also, I was visiting Germany and went to a casino; They had the Game King Machine 1 Euro and 2 Euro DENOM.: The payout was amazing: Full House 10 : Flush 8 : STRAIGHT 5: I put 500 EUROS in the machine, I couldn't hit anything. No FLush: No Full House: No Straight: Just a few Big Pairs. I was certain at that point that the Machines can be fixed, but then again I read in many different Forums that It is a Random Shuffle.... and ETC.... I guess the Mystery of it is really bugging me as to how can they program the machine ??? Sometimes I make 4 ACES by just holding an ACE, sometimes I get dealt 3 ACES 40X and can not make Quads. Is it really random ??? If it is all fixed then what is the point of playing a perfect strategy game. Because no matter how perfect I play, the machine will only pay at certain times. 3 weeks ago I was dealt a ROYAL FLUSH @ The ARIA on the 410 Machine progressive 46K: it just dealt me a DIAMOND ROYAL FLUSH: Holds it automatically. I always wonder ??? Was that Random ???? I guess I'm very frustrated that this is such a big kept secret, I talked to James Woods the Actor @ Bellagio about it, he was wondering the same thing as well. I talked to many high limit VP players, none of them had an answer, they all had different theories about it. I guess the Theory that the Machine deals you 10 CARDS @ Random is all wrong. i would love to learn more about this, if anyone in the forum has any recommendation on Websites or Books . Thanks

[DaBurglar]

welcome to the forum didigoftam....First, you are simply the LATEST person to ask these same questions and wonder about these same issues.   The gaming regs of most US states that offer casino gambling (including the horribly worded regs of New Jersey) go out of their way to emphasize that games like Video Poker must be random and must have accurate payoff info in the paytables to allow us to figure out the best play per hand.Casinos, in following the regs, do so out of (hopefully) a LONG TERM thinking perspective that prevents them from possibly trying to reap short term benefit from rigging their games at the risk of supposedly losing their license(s).This all presumes and supposes that (1) Casinos ALWAYS act rationally and abide by regulations (2) the people running the casinos will never go "rogue" and try to pull some Sh88T when they think no one is looking or will find out....and (3)  That the gaming authorities/regulators in each state are "On the ball" and will always discover and find out any such cheating or rigging IF it ever happens.I myself, will always allow for the possibility that a VP game that I sit down to play may not be properly set up or functioning.    I choose to believe that MOST, Vastly so, will be properly functioning.    But the plain truth is, we will never ever know, except possibly someday LONG after the fact (i.e. AFTER we have lost our money).I know in the case of New Jersey that for the last 4 plus years, the gaming control division has been so short staffed and suffered such cutbacks that I cannot believe they inspected or spot checked even a small fraction of total machines.   Something to think about.....