Difference between a pro and recreational gambler

[onemoretry]

the term 'free play', indicates one must play to cash it out. a $100 free play coupon could easily turn into $10-20-50 of cash. the only value is for play. it's not that free play has no value, i count it as part of my bankroll, when i play and i play when my free play is the highest amount. but, wins are those dollars that i can pay a utility bill with
From what you've indicated, the value of your "free" play is, in fact, accounted for at the end of the day. If you had $100 of "free" play, and had gone to the casino to play, that's $100 that did not have to come out of your pocket, and you are therefor $100 better off. You can use that $100 to pay bills.

As an aside, I think the term "free" play is a complete misnomer. Casinos, of course, use it to give the impression that they are giving away something. The fact is that this is earned by the player, and is not free at all.    

[notes1]

[QUOTE=notes1]
the term 'free play', indicates one must play to cash it out. a $100 free play coupon could easily turn into $10-20-50 of cash. the only value is for play. it's not that free play has no value, i count it as part of my bankroll, when i play and i play when my free play is the highest amount. but, wins are those dollars that i can pay a utility bill with
From what you've indicated, the value of your "free" play is, in fact, accounted for at the end of the day. If you had $100 of "free" play, and had gone to the casino to play, that's $100 that did not have to come out of your pocket, and you are therefor $100 better off. You can use that $100 to pay bills.

As an aside, I think the term "free" play is a complete misnomer. Casinos, of course, use it to give the impression that they are giving away something. The fact is that this is earned by the player, and is not free at all.    
[/QUOTE]
 sorry, i am just not seeing the logic. if i go to a casino with $100 cash only, play and lose that same $100 and at the end of my play,the casino gives me a free play coupon for $105 for the next time i come, am i a winner that day?

[FAA]

My goal is always to turn my free play into the equivalent hard cash. That actually usually happens w VP. It's subsequent play that kills me. Maybe I should set twenty minute limits per machine for the free play and a quarter hour wiggle room max. 

[Vman96]

[ sorry, i am just not seeing the logic. if i go to a casino with $100 cash only, play and lose that same $100 and at the end of my play,the casino gives me a free play coupon for $105 for the next time i come, am i a winner that day?

I would consider you a $100 loser that day because it's possible you don't come back.

But next time you have $105 of freeplay at your disposal. So if you wouldn't touch any of your own money and you turned that freeplay into say...$60 cash, then I would consider you a $60 winner.

[onemoretry]

sorry, i am just not seeing the logic. if i go to a casino with $100 cash only, play and lose that same $100 and at the end of my play,the casino gives me a free play coupon for $105 for the next time i come, am i a winner that day?
No. But assuming you start the next visit with that $105 coupon, and if you have exactly the same result as the previous time, you end up +$5 rather than -$100. That makes you a winner, rather than a loser, for that subsequent day.

Sorry Vman, I wrote and posted this response before reading yours, which says substantially the same thing.

[misterlister]

Anyone reading this thread would come to the very easy conclusion that these "pros" use any and all whatevers just to be able to claim they are winners. You won't find that kind of odd logic from regular players, probably because we aren't selling anything related to the game. It's also why they need other employment and pensions or social security to be able to keep playing.

Is free play countable as profit? Hahaha. That's like saying my airplane miles are profit or my grocery store loyalty points are profit. It is what it is, and free play isn't worth a penny unless you take some of it home in the form of cash.

[notes1]

[QUOTE=notes1]
sorry, i am just not seeing the logic. if i go to a casino with $100 cash only, play and lose that same $100 and at the end of my play,the casino gives me a free play coupon for $105 for the next time i come, am i a winner that day?
No. But assuming you start the next visit with that $105 coupon, and if you have exactly the same result as the previous time, you end up +$5 rather than -$100. That makes you a winner, rather than a loser, for that subsequent day.

Sorry Vman, I wrote and posted this response before reading yours, which says substantially the same thing.[/QUOTE]
 let me take my example one step further. after playing/losing $100 and getting a $105 free play, you go back again. you lose another $100 of your own money, you lose the $105 free slot play, but they give you a free play coupon for $210 for your next trip, are you still ahead $10? when exactly does one realize the loss? sounds like some kind of government accounting. 

[notes1]

[QUOTE=notes1]
[ sorry, i am just not seeing the logic. if i go to a casino with $100 cash only, play and lose that same $100 and at the end of my play,the casino gives me a free play coupon for $105 for the next time i come, am i a winner that day?

I would consider you a $100 loser that day because it's possible you don't come back.

But next time you have $105 of freeplay at your disposal. So if you wouldn't touch any of your own money and you turned that freeplay into say...$60 cash, then I would consider you a $60 winner.[/QUOTE]
 so, the first day, you lost $100 and the 2nd trip you won $60, i agree. but that is an entirely different answer than the other poster is saying. and, if i understand how dancer determines if he is a winner, it is different than what he is saying.  free play must be turned into cash, before it can be counted as a plus.

[pokerforme]

Some of you just don't like Bob. Yea he comes off pretty bad at times, and even I become offended by some of the way he says things. On the flip side he also does this for FREE. I don't know everything he does to make a living at VP but over the years he has painted a good picture of how he is working the casino system. Just because YOU cant make it work does not mean he is not. Why this forum always becomes a personal attack without moderation puzzles me.
Edited to add: take what you understand as advice, what you don't as not for you-----either way thank him for his knowledge. If you dislike someone or there opinions sometimes is better you don't say anything than to ruin a decent forum like this. I wish the forum had more people like Bob that are willing to share knowledge THEY paid for threw trial and error.

[onemoretry]

let me take my example one step further. after playing/losing $100 and getting a $105 free play, you go back again. you lose another $100 of your own money, you lose the $105 free slot play, but they give you a free play coupon for $210 for your next trip, are you still ahead $10? when exactly does one realize the loss? sounds like some kind of government accounting. 
After day one you are -$100. You earned a $105 coupon.

After day two you are -$200, and have a $210 "free" play coupon. Without the $105 coupon earned on day one, you would actually be $305 out of pocket.

Suppose, on day three, you play that $210 down to zero. You are now $200 out of pocket for the three days. Isn't that how you would count it?

But, if you had not been given the $105 and $210 coupons, you would be -$515, since you would have to have put $315 out of your pocket into the machine instead of the coupons.

So, yes, at the end of the three days, you have realized a $200 loss. That's a lot better than the $515 loss your play actually generated.