Can VP machines be programmed for low return?

[ravenbynight111]

[QUOTE=Lucky Larry] [QUOTE=grammie] I play VP and slots at the Hollywood and Belterra casinos in Southern IN.  It is in my opinion that all of the machines (slots and VP) are remotely controlled of loose or tight plays.  If you listen to the sounds of the casino, you can hear the roar of machines picking up and hitting more often then it will quiet down and you will not be able to hit your butt with both hands.  I imagine a zoned water sprinkler system, one zone kicks in for a few seconds, then as it slows back down, the next zone picks up.  Like I said, it's only my opinion, but I think the casinos have control over this.  

Welcome to the forum. My guess is you may be hearing a cooling fan come on. I often play the same "older" machine for hours and often after a few hours of constant play or hitting the keys to quickly it will get slower, freeze up until the fan comes on. In a few minutes it cools down and I"m at it again. Like shadowman says, "why would a casino risk losing it license?" They make enough money including off VP from normal play.

[/QUOTE]
Right on ! I would say since 2008 the house is doing what ever they want.
Why would a casino risk losing its license? Are you kidding? Why did Countrywide risk losing its ability to operate? Why did Goldman-Sacs risk its reputation? Why did nearly every major bank risk losing its,customers? Why did Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac risk everything? Why did so many executives from some of the most successful American businesses risk going to jail with all their corruption and ensuing coverups? MONEY! But oh I get it now shadowman. Casinos are run by the most ethical of people, and every casino has higher revenues than Wall Street.

Wake up, smell the rotten eggs, and leave the wet dreams behind. [/QUOTE]
It is only a crime if someone complains and they can prove it. good luck with that. In the end the house always wins.

[FloridaPhil]

Agreed, they could cheat and it would be easy to do.  I just think it wouldn't be worth the risk. If it was ever proven they would stand to lose too much money.   It's like the stock market, congress and the banks, they work because people believe they're honest.  Wow, can't believe I just said that!   Actually, I have more faith in Indian Casino video poker than those other guys.  At least I know I'm going to get screwed.  It says so right on the machine...    

[backsider]

I have to laugh. One more time a more knowledgeable, current day, computer-literate poster not only lays out the sense behind how and why any casino can and probably does re-tune a machine or three here and there, and then follows up the predictable "punched right in the gut" challenge by who else but a visibly shaken shadowman with articulate details that would even leave Obama speechless at a Hollywood fundraiser, and all shadow can come back with is how nobody (sniffle) would want to do serious jail time.

HOW MANY BIG SHOTS OR ANYONE ELSE ARE DOING "JAIL TIME" AFTER NEARLY DESTROYING OUR COUNTRY'S FINANCIAL WELL-BEING WITH GREED RESULTING FROM "CORRUPTION FROM WITHIN"?

Snap out of the fifties shadow.   

[shadowman]

I have to laugh. One more time a more knowledgeable, current day, computer-literate poster not only lays out the sense behind how and why any casino can and probably does re-tune a machine or three here and there, and then follows up the predictable "punched right in the gut" challenge by who else but a visibly shaken shadowman with articulate details that would even leave Obama speechless at a Hollywood fundraiser, and all shadow can come back with is how nobody (sniffle) would want to do serious jail time.
 
Is that right? Then why did he not respond to the questions I ask? How "computer-literate" is that? But hey, since you jumped in again how about YOU taking us through the details since you believe it is so easy. Just lay out those simple steps you think will allow a casino to get into the guts of a machine designed by a completely different company.

HOW MANY BIG SHOTS OR ANYONE ELSE ARE DOING "JAIL TIME" AFTER NEARLY DESTROYING OUR COUNTRY'S FINANCIAL WELL-BEING WITH GREED RESULTING FROM "CORRUPTION FROM WITHIN"?

Snap out of the fifties shadow.   
 
There was almost no laws broken by the individuals who made bad financial decisions that led to the housing debacle. It was legal. Sure, there's always a few Madoff's out there but that was not the problem. The problem was greed, but it had nothing to do with "corruption from within". That you make such silly claims should tell everyone you have little understanding of most things you comment on.
 
Now, who actually owns the big casinos. Is it the slot supervisor ... no. Is it even the casino manager ... no. Why would these individuals, who receive nice pay packages and could probably find employment at other businesses or casinos, risk going to jail to improve the casino owner's bottom line? Casinos are corporations, they are not some mob owned business like it was 50 years ago.
 
I think we know who's still living in the "fifties. It's the same person who has used the term "punched right in the gut" many, many times. Good old RSakaBS.

[DaBurglar]

holy sheeet This thing takes on a life of its own  I am not a programmer by trade, but I do know programming enough to know basic principles and know when someone is BullSh*ttng me.   I am experienced in software testing, documenting and conducting training and troubleshooting, and I am an expert in things like SQL, report generating, and setting up UDC tables and other functionality and aesthetic elements to operating systems programs.   A typical, simple straightforward VP game withoutd any flashy colors or bells and whistles would NOT require several thousand lines of code, come on dude.   Sure, a game like ULTIMATE X with all its finery and colors and wide variety of settings and choices MIGHT approach what your surmise, but thats not what we are discussing here.  I stated before in another thread that todays NEWER VP games come with setup screens that allow users (i.e. the casino) to alter screen layouts, game choices, denominations and all that.....these User defined screens ALSO allow the user to weight the results that the RNG produces to the levels and preference of the user.   Much like when you purchase, say, a strategy wargame or simulation (like Civilization or Railroad tycoon or Empire, where a RNG generates combat results but YOU can give one side or another a weighted advantage or disadvantage so that the results of the RNG are filtered through the parameters you define and the weighted results are whats displayed and determine who wins and who loses.) For a VP machine, This allows a user to cause MORE (or LESS) of, say four of a kinds to show up, or royals.   In this scenario they DO NOT have to mess with ANY CODE whatsoever.   The RNG does what it does, but then its results can be "tweaked" to the casinos desire.  Do they do this or utilize this utility, in apparent violation of that previously cited gaming regulation that suposedly ensures games that mimic a "LIVE" event like dealing cards???   Probably not but they can, and then set it back to what its supposed to be when it suits them (like if they experience a "RARE" audit or inspection.)    These user defined screens are primarily for aesthetic purposes, but altering or weighting the results of the RNG can be used for legitimate gaming purposes IF the casino chooses to feature a "NEW" or modified game.   Suppose it advertises a machine that states clearly "FOUR OF A KINDS dealt with increased frequency!  Try it!"   They probably kill the paytable for all other hands below four of a kind, but add to the payout of four of a kind, and set  the frequenct of four of a kind to an average of 1 in 350 hands.   AS long as they state such in the games advertising, they are not violating any gaming standards. As a programmer shadowman, you should know how easy it is with a few boolean loops and a counter to do stuff like this and how it would relate to a user defined code menu setup. I've had at least two people imply to me that this is how things get done in some casinos on some machines.  Older machines this isnt possible and on those, gettinge into the guts as you term it, would be neccessary.   But really, it is NOT that hard. BUT......I say again, just because these user menus and calibartion utilities exist does NOT mean the casinos are using them to clobber us with machines that dont pay......but it is possible that a few (or more) machines are set up this way simply because times are really bad and someone's pay/bonus is indeed tied to the monthly performance of certain machines on the casino floor, this we know.  One more thing regarding "losing a license".....with respect to machines being rigged, even if a casino is caught, they absolutely DO NOT JUST GET SHUT DOWN and lose their license.   it would take multiple violations over a long time for it to get to that level.....a far more likely (and reasonable) penalty is paying fines....shutting down a casino is NOT in the interest of anyone in this equation, even the gaming commision whose Budget and very existence is tied to these casinos.   

[shadowman]

I am not a programmer by trade,
 
I am.
 
but I do know programming enough to know basic principles and know when someone is BullSh*ttng me.   I am experienced in software testing, documenting and conducting training and troubleshooting, and I am an expert in things like SQL, report generating, and setting up UDC tables and other functionality and aesthetic elements to operating systems programs.   A typical, simple straightforward VP game withoutd any flashy colors or bells and whistles would NOT require several thousand lines of code, come on dude.   Sure, a game like ULTIMATE X with all its finery and colors and wide variety of settings and choices MIGHT approach what your surmise, but thats not what we are discussing here.
 
The game code is a small percentage of the code that goes into a VP machine.
 
I stated before in another thread that todays NEWER VP games come with setup screens that allow users (i.e. the casino) to alter screen layouts, game choices, denominations and all that.....these User defined screens ALSO allow the user to weight the results that the RNG produces to the levels and preference of the user.   Much like when you purchase, say, a strategy wargame or simulation (like Civilization or Railroad tycoon or Empire, where a RNG generates combat results but YOU can give one side or another a weighted advantage or disadvantage so that the results of the RNG are filtered through the parameters you define and the weighted results are whats displayed and determine who wins and who loses.)
 
Nonsense. Sorry, that would be illegal in the state of NV (and everywhere else I have seen) and the NGC actually inspects the code. Read reg 14.040 and get back to me on that.
 
For a VP machine, This allows a user to cause MORE (or LESS) of, say four of a kinds to show up, or royals.   In this scenario they DO NOT have to mess with ANY CODE whatsoever.   The RNG does what it does, but then its results can be "tweaked" to the casinos desire.  Do they do this or utilize this utility, in apparent violation of that previously cited gaming regulation that suposedly ensures games that mimic a "LIVE" event like dealing cards???   Probably not but they can, and then set it back to what its supposed to be when it suits them (like if they experience a "RARE" audit or inspection.)    These user defined screens are primarily for aesthetic purposes, but altering or weighting the results of the RNG can be used for legitimate gaming purposes IF the casino chooses to feature a "NEW" or modified game.   Suppose it advertises a machine that states clearly "FOUR OF A KINDS dealt with increased frequency!  Try it!"   They probably kill the paytable for all other hands below four of a kind, but add to the payout of four of a kind, and set  the frequenct of four of a kind to an average of 1 in 350 hands.   AS long as they state such in the games advertising, they are not violating any gaming standards.
 
Where did you get this stuff. Read the regs man, it's specifically not allowed.
 
As a programmer shadowman, you should know how easy it is with a few boolean loops and a counter to do stuff like this and how it would relate to a user defined code menu setup.
 
I've had at least two people imply to me that this is how things get done in some casinos on some machines.  Older machines this isnt possible and on those, gettinge into the guts as you term it, would be neccessary.   But really, it is NOT that hard.
 
You've been lied to, what can I say.
 
BUT......I say again, just because these user menus and calibartion utilities exist does NOT mean the casinos are using them to clobber us with machines that dont pay......but it is possible that a few (or more) machines are set up this way simply because times are really bad and someone's pay/bonus is indeed tied to the monthly performance of certain machines on the casino floor, this we know.
 
They don't exist.
 
One more thing regarding "losing a license".....with respect to machines being rigged, even if a casino is caught, they absolutely DO NOT JUST GET SHUT DOWN and lose their license.   it would take multiple violations over a long time for it to get to that level.....a far more likely (and reasonable) penalty is paying fines....shutting down a casino is NOT in the interest of anyone in this equation, even the gaming commision whose Budget and very existence is tied to these casinos.   

 
Casinos could get fined or their license revoked. Either way is pretty much a death sentence once it got out that the casino was rigging the games.

[DaBurglar]

I know the game code is a small % of the code, that kinda was my point within my point.  The menus (or screens) do exist, I've seen them and had them described to me.  I have read 14.04, you dont understand my point about what i am describing and how it DOES NOT violate the code if they dont use them in the nefarious way we are talking about here. The whole reason i even brought this scenario with the newer machines possessing these added utilities was, ONCE AGAIN, to simply point out what MIGHT happen or what is possible.   Let me point out to you just how much corruption does in fact exist in the world, especially in government.  Since we are talking about specifically and industry and activity (gambling) that already is morally compromised in some way shape or form, and given the importance of money and its all consuming pursuit in this business, why is it so hard for you to simply acknowledge the possibility that some of us VP players might have been screwed at some point?  I honestly dont get it.....whats going to happen to you when someone, someday points out that what we are discussing here actually has happen?  Are you going to drop dead or something?   Hmmm???  Finally, gaming commision investigations and actions are normally confidential unless the problem persists or there already is notoriety and public awareness (like if a underage girl is raqped or killed, or if a drug dealer is indicted and it comes to wit that he funnelled 80% of his dope proceeds thru a casinos cage, etc etc.)   The commision will not tell anyone if they believe the problem is fixed, and that is both good public policy and business policy since a casino is a vital cog in a communities economy.   Furthermore, if the commision wants to look at a machine in depth, it is obliged to give the casino enough time to take the game out of circulation, remove all monies and casino property/fixtures, and deliver it to the comission in a specified time frame.....BUT, with the screens and utilities I mentioned, the comission could ask to see those and deterine if compliance exists almost instantaneously......but the likelihood of them doing that is almost nil for reasons we have beaten to death before.  let me put you on the spot for once:  describe to me HOW exactly a commision agent would even get around to wanting to see if a machine is rigged?   what would such a scenario involve or how would it take place?  

[Quad Deuces]

screenshot please.

[DaBurglar]

screenshot??? Oh hold on, let me recreate it.......lol  DUH I saw on two occasions at the Tropicana AC technicians reformatting the VP screens.   if anyone frequents the Trop AC then you know exactly what I am talking about and that it has in fact happened.   The Trop AC recently (starting around March or perhaps earlier ) modified almost ALL their simpler formatted VP machines to change from having 12 different games with four different monetary denominations to only 6 different game choices with 2 denominations (mostly 25 and 50 cents.)    On two different nights, late (after 2 am) i watched as techs went through a variety of different set up menus to accomplish this task on the group of machines they were working.....I saw menus that specified frequency parameters and such......I would have snapped a photo with my phone cam but that is strongly disallowed plus I was not close enough to get a good pic with the guy's head bobbing in and out back and forth.   But I could clearly see what i saw,,,,,,my hearing sucks but my eyes are very good!

[shadowman]

I believe you misunderstood what you were seeing. Until such a time that you can provide actual proof of your claim I doubt many people will believe that IGT provides the ability to violate NGC regulations.
 
The regulations are very clear. No secondary programming is allowed. You are descrbing secondary programming. Go read the regulations.
 
http://gaming.nv.gov/modules/showdocume ... entid=2921
 
"2. Must use a random selection process to determine the game outcome of each play of a game. The random selection process must meet 95 percent confidence limits using a standard chi-squared test for goodness of fit.
(a) Each possible permutation or combination of game elements which produce winning or losing game outcomes must be available for random selection at the initiation of each play.
(b) For gaming devices that are representative of live gambling games, the mathematical probability of a symbol or other element appearing in a game outcome must be equal to the mathematical probability of that symbol or element occurring in the live gambling game. For other gaming devices, the mathematical probability of a symbol appearing in a position in any game outcome must be constant.
(c) The selection process must not produce detectable patterns of game elements or detectable dependency upon any previous game outcome, the amount wagered, or upon the style or method of play. 3. Must display an accurate representation of the game outcome. After selection of the game outcome, the gaming device must not make a variable secondary decision which affects the result shown to the player."
 
I have seen screens that show *results* that contain information on frequencies, etc. They are NOT set up screens. They are simply showing what has happened at that machine.