What is the liklihood of Casino cheating at VP?

[ko king]

Let's try looking at this another way.  Everyone talks about the machines, RNGs, casinos, etc...  Let's start with the board/comission.  We can just assume they are keeping things strictly in check and doing it an honorable sense.... WHY? 

When this new phase of crappy poker started I thought I was gonna be a good tax payer and report all the crap to the board.  This was a few years ago but I'll never forget how rude and wisecracking the girls working the phones were.  So next I would try bringing it to casino workers, even slot managers.  Of course at first, they toed the industry line.  But eventually they told me some shocking things.

At a certain large local chain they were blunt about it, "yeah, our machines are OFF and so is everyone elses."  Another one said, "some days we wished we could loosen more, but that's no longer in our hands."  But it goes further then that, I think it involves what machines they could put in, what promotions they can offer, eating options, etc.....  This entire industry is now being micromanaged from the top down.

Casinos ain't stupid, they know how much a bank pulls in over a time period regardless if it's paying or not, they tracked popularity.  Now I've lost count of how many popular banks were pulled only to be replaced with new crap that NOBODY EVER plays.  And do you think the casino switches em back?  NO!  It does not make any sense.

The most important info I've gathered over the last few years came from the folks in the trenches, the slot attendents and drink servers that have worked at certain casinos for years. The employees that are there when we're not see firsthand what's going on and many of them have told me the machines just aren't paying like they used to. Some would argue that's because people aren't playing like they used to but I would ask what came first the chicken or the egg. There's no question people aren't playing like they used to, I can see it when I walk into these casinos. It used to be the vp machines were full, sometimes I had to hang around and wait for a machine, now that's not a problem and many times there is not one single person playing the vp machines, what happened? Over the years I got used to seeing some players that were there everytime I went, even got to know some of them, these were some serious vp players, when I ask the employees about them I was told they just quit playing. I've actually ran into a few of these people at my favorite casino and every single one of them said the same exact thing, they were getting their butts kicked, they didn't quit playing they went elsewhere. Many people who play a lot of vp over the last few have all gone through the same thing, at first they tought it was a bad streak, a run of bad luck but when it just kept going with no end in sight and it was costing much more to play the game they either quit or went elsewhere. I still go to some of these casinos looking for a hint that things may have changed but I haven't seen it yet.  

[ko king]

I just question (because I don't know and because I have no confidence in casino management integrity) whether state gaming officials are competent to regulate the manipulation of video poker. Does anyone know what the process and oversight is for a video poker machine to placed on a casino floor? Also, how do (if they do) gaming regulators monitor video poker pay outs once installed?

I remember a few conversations I had with these people and I wasn't surprised at what I heard. I asked one of them if I was playing standard Class III vp and this was their answer, "That's probably something I should know, I'll check and get back to you". On another occasion I ask if there was anything that controlled or influenced the jackpots/handpays for the vp I was playing and was told this, "I think there is a chip that controls that". And last but not least, I ask one of them what they before this job and was told, "I sold used cars".  As far as what they do to insure that are expectaions are being met I can only rely on what I experienced. I took 2 years worth of results that showed the actual payback percentage I recieved along with records showing why the percentage was so low, both years results were almost identical and revealed what was missing from my play. They agreed to run some test on the machines and get back to me, when they got back to me I was told that all but a few were operating within the "curve", when I ask what the "curve" was I was told it was a payback of between 83-99.99%. When I brought up the missing from the game all I was told was we're sorry for your bad luck may we suggest you play a lower denomination game.

[chucknorris5]

That's a very troubling response you received.

[spxChrome]

[QUOTE=spxChrome]Yea hindsight is 20/20 and no I won't be returning to that casino. Actually quit going 2 months ago and I was a 2x a week player, 8-10K hands per session. After no hand pays for a month+ I became a believer. Like DA was saying it was just trash after trash after trash. I once played 47 single line hands without a paying pair. Not impossible I suppose but it has to be highly improbable given the alleged randomness involved.
I play $2 DDB at max play and I remember a stretch of going to the casino and not hitting a single handpay for 15 straight trips, never in my 18 years of previous play had I ever seen anything like it. Hindsight is 20/20 but I just keep thinking this has got to stop sometime, it can't stay bad forever. On the 16th trip I finally hit quad Aces for $1,600, walked out right after that hit then went the next 5 trips without hitting another handpay. I won't tell a lie and say I won money playing a few years back but the losses WERE in line with the advertised payback percentages, some years a little below and a few above. With the exception of one casino I can't come close to 98.98% and it's changed the way I play in a pretty big way. Before the play got so tough I would have multiple handpays on good trips, the most I ever had in 1 night was 8 and 3-5 handpays was very common. The way it is now getting 1 handpay is asking a lot, if I had been playing far less hands it would be understandable but that wasn't the case, I was putting the time in.  [/QUOTE]

Wow this is so spot on... this is exactly how it is for my play. I agree with everything you have said. I play mostly $1 9/6 DDB mixed in with $1 9/7 TDB. The payback% these days are about what a slot machine would payback. And not just for myself but there is a group of 3 of us that all play about the same and we are all having the same results.

[zwaszz]

I would like to weigh in on this subject.  In the annals of history, in the course of time, there is no exception available, regarding anything, that does not involve CHEATING in the human experience.  Why then, would any of those who play such a game, at a corporation's place of business, think, intelligently, that even one of these places is not CHEATING.  THAT thinking would be NAIVETE to the maximum.  And regarding the various states and the employees who will "check" these computers?  What?  This question:  What is the ORIGIN of big time casino gambling?  Who made it possible?  Are you suggesting that there is NO RESIDUAL, NO REMAINING ELEMENT?For you, I have to say, you are more NAIVE then a anything that could enter your imagination. 

[dredwing]

Another quick thing so I don't come across as just singling out the industry.  We as VP players are not exactly the ideal type of customer.  Your average VP player understands the ratios, odds, and even strategies.  We know why a royal pays 4000 coins.  Compared to the video slot player it's a helluva contrast. So a VP player knows a 4000 coin payback on max bet indicates a roughly 1-40,000 chance to hit.  They usually know their denominations, like 4000 quarters pays a grand, etc...  But your average slot player faces a max bet of anywhere between $.90 - $5+ a spin.  And when they hit a pot for $30-$300 they are thrilled.  To a VP player that's horrendous.

[ko king]

I would like to weigh in on this subject.  In the annals of history, in the course of time, there is no exception available, regarding anything, that does not involve CHEATING in the human experience.  Why then, would any of those who play such a game, at a corporation's place of business, think, intelligently, that even one of these places is not CHEATING.  THAT thinking would be NAIVETE to the maximum. 
And regarding the various states and the employees who will "check" these computers?  What?  This question:  What is the ORIGIN of big time casino gambling?  Who made it possible?  Are you suggesting that there is NO RESIDUAL, NO REMAINING ELEMENT?
For you, I have to say, you are more NAIVE then a anything that could enter your imagination. 
I've made pretty much the same post as this before so we're kinda on the same page. I'm not real big on using the word "cheating" when it comes to gaming for the simple reason that I've never seen or heard any casino advertise the odds and statistics pertaining to the game of vp. With that said I've played vp for about 20 years now, the first few years I spent learning the game and once I figured it out I couldn't understand why anyone would bother playing anything else. Until a few years ago the odds, statistics and paytables were more than benchmarks or guidelines they were pretty much the facts of the game as far as I was concerned. Now all the numbers mean to me anymore is to let me know what's missing from a game I thought I knew. I think we're all aware of the origin of big time gaming and maybe today the corporations and the mafia share a lot of things in common, they just have different ways of getting what they want. I still stop short of using the word "cheating" because no casino has ever told me "over time with perfect play these machines will return 98.98% to you" or "on average you will hit a royal flush every 40K hands and a quad every 423 hands", no sir, all the machine offers up is what it will pay if you happen to hit certain hands. I'm not defending any casino by any means but when the folks writing the rules and regulations say the games are just fine as long as they're paying back between 83-99.99% who am I to say they're cheating. 

[olds442jetaway]

Hmmmmm, In that light my most recent 2 day session of 10,000 hands only returned 88%. Worst ever. No deuces quads, no Royals, few regular quads, one lonely straight flush, and even on Double Down Stud Deuces wild, nothing higher than a simple quad. Granted a relatively small sample, but if anything the 93-95% returns of the last couple of years may be falling to below 90%. Going to have to switch to all penny and nickel games for a couple of months to see if what one slot tech told me seems to be true. A vp machine is nothing more or less than another slot machine. They do pay according to the paytable just as any other slot does. Maybe our assumptions are totally wrong that the software is set to perform strictly to RNG rules. Just seems like an awful lot of die hard players throughout the country and 10's of millions of hands are getting similar results.

[onemoretry]

Just seems like an awful lot of die hard players throughout the country and 10's of millions of hands are getting similar results.

Is this really the case? Or, are we hearing only from the players having a tough time?

[ko king]

[QUOTE=olds442jetaway]Just seems like an awful lot of die hard players throughout the country and 10's of millions of hands are getting similar results.

Is this really the case? Or, are we hearing only from the players having a tough time?[/QUOTE]
Good question and I'd like to know that myself so I'll submit as the first piece of evidence the actual numbers from a one year win/loss statement to make my case that things aren't the same. The game I play has a paytable of 9/6/4 or 98.98% payback, it is Standard Class III video poker.
 
Dollars In     Dollars Out       Win/Loss      Att. Pd. Payout      Adjusted Win/Loss
--------------    ----------------      --------------     --------------------     --------------------------
$659,900       $577,250          $82,650           $51,200                   - $31,450
 
Now I could play off this one years results as a "tough time" but I have two consecutive years with almost identical results playing a game that says if you play perfect over time you should see a return of around 98.98%. Now I don't claim to play perfect all the time, no doubt there was mistake every now and then but to end up with a payback of around 95.3% for not just one year but two in a row is a little hard for me to accept as just a "tough time". Now the payback of around 95% hasn't always been the case in fact it has only happened the last few years for me, for around 16 years I was always hoovering around that 98.98%. I understand a lot folks wouldn't think much of a few percentage points but it actually translates in to a lot money for the casinos.