State whether or not you have won....

[DaBurglar]

  notes in states where casino gambling does not play a big part in their budget (Nevada is probably the only one) there would probably not be much resistance via the legislature against a measure that a casino lobby group may push for.   But in states where casino gambling is still considered a blight on society and a tax on poor people, there are groups who routinely fight any change of state gaming regulations by the casino lobbying groups. These people do a fantastic job of getting Mr. & Mrs. John Q. Public informed about any possible altering of gaming regulations that may be in place.    Did you know that Illinois now allows restaurants that hold liquor licenses and that meet other qualifiers to have up to 5 gaming machines in their establishment? These games are highly regulated and controlled. So in this context Illinois has more brick and mortar casinos that any other state in the United States. WRONG......For any state, past or present or future, to even consider casino gambling, let alone actually allow it, the entire motive has been and will be to impact their revenue by increasing it.....it's a big deal everywhere it goes, whether or not the relative percentage of the state's revenue (and therefore BUDGET) is 5%, 19%, 33% or whatever.......casino gambling is a hot button issue everywhere.And besides, what are we discussing here anyway?  Our focus is on GAME machines and how they operate and the results they generate etc.     When we talk about "REGULATION and oversight", that is the job of the state's casino gaming authority (or equivalent organization) that is established by the state legislature if and when it implements casino gaming.    And once the laws are enacted, the legislature next must actually vote to authorize FUNDING (i.e. another "budget") for that casino reglatory organization......that Org is now responsible fo rensuring that the machines in the casinos (whether it is a CET Resort like Harrahs with 4500 machines  or a simple "Ted's EXTRA-greasy spoon" bar & diner  with 7 or 8 slot machines) are in compliance and no one is messing with them.Notes1 has some valid points on this subject:   As he alludes, I do not believe that casinos flat out rig machines illegally (although I allow for the possibility simply because anything is truly possible these days).....what I do believe is that the current generation of machines (especially SERVER BASED) operate in such a way that the play results generated are less favorable to players than in past years (again, before 2010-11)    this is NOT saying they are ILLEGAL, this is saying that the machines COMPLY with today's regs and they are different than the past, most likely in the way RNG  tech operates with its quantum leap in speed......apparently this makes for less winning hands in typical sessions because so many people report losing since 2010 and report LESS AND LESS HAND PAYS/W-2sThat's the clincher, people have clearly been seeing fewer handpays and fewwer w-2s within this more general and less clear topic of simply winning or losing.   That is something that is NOT subject to interpretation or human bias.....how do we explain the across-the-board drop in w-2s and handpays??!?!?!

[Carcounter]

About 10 years ago, one of my clients was the gaming lab in Lakewood NJ that tested and certified vp and slots for the AC market. Sorry I didn't ask for a tour of the facility now. Things were good back then.

[roveer]

roveer, do not know you, but the way you wrote your post, i found it very believeable. it felt like it came from well thought out experience and an honest appraisal of all that you have seen.    i am now accepting the conclusion that many have made, that the machines are NOT rigged. my previous assertions were wrong. i came to this belief for one simple reason, no group could keep a secret like this for a long period of time.   but, i ask you, do you believe the machines have changed in some way? is it possible something else is going on? is it possible, that with regulator approval, the machines/shuffling is different?  i would really be interested in your thoughts.

To answer your question about whether the machines have changed in some way. I'll say this.

If you've read some of my crazier posts I have put forth the notion that while the manufacturers are technically playing by the rules there is the possibility of some hanky panky that would allow them to still meet the requirements of the laws and yet possibly effect the outcome of our short term play. All this while having no effect on the long term statistical outcome of the games. And remember, this is what the manufacturers are judged on. There is a report or "birth sheet" on games that the manufacturers create before putting the game into circulation which is used to qualify that there is no defect with the game. I think it's also called a PAR Sheet.

I have also waxed poetic about RNG's number strings, seed values and the like and what I can say is that while I believe the games are not rigged in the simplest sense (a button, a setting, removing cards from the deck), I do believe there is a possibility that they are fiddling around with the seed value and when/how it is set/reset. In the long run (millions of hands) it all evens out and gives an expected distribution. In the short run (our typical session), it would seem possible to me that it could appear different from machines we played years ago. This technically could give the casino's more money, because we keep playing for the big win that we used to get. I am an example of this. Since Oct last year I had some decent wins and poured most if not all back in trying to get the bigger ones I was accustomed to. I no longer do that. I'm modifying my play to adapt to what I consider a change made by the manufactures. Remember, I used to have a pocket full of W2G's after my sessions. I'm not seeing that at this point. Now, it's also possible that we are in a period of poor number strings based on seed values and in 2 months from now I could be back to piles of paper. That's always a possibility. I'm just saying that I believe it's possible that it could be coming from the manufacturer AND still be following all of the rules.

Here's an interesting fact. I posted about this a while back. My miserable play is not only happening in the casino's, but on my iPad app and also on a machine that I own. It's an older machine so it's not getting any sort of updates or changes to the code. I haven't seen A's with a kicker in the longest time and I bonk on 3OAK (10 handed) literally a dozen or more times in a session. The moderator has pointed out (rightly so), that this phenomenon is further proof that I'm just at a statistical low point. Technically this may very well be the fact and it's hard for us to stay objective when you have so many losing sessions, but remember, statistically our sessions are very very small samplings of a much bigger picture. At this point I'm in a "take the money and run" posture, but it's very hard to do when you want to start a big session and start thinking the big hits that you used to get are around the corner. For me at least that has not been the case so I have had to adjust my play.

I've seen how my casino does upgrades. They come wheeling out with big carts and do an entire motherboard swap. From having been inside these machines making individual changes normally requires a "key chip" and while the newer machines may no longer be that way, they still seem to swap motherboards. This would make sense, they do all the work in the back and hit the floor as quickly as possible as to not interfere with play. I have never seen any settings for VP at least that would allow manipulation of any sort. Just change pay tables and denominations. Lots of other feature settings but nothing that would allow manipulation of the game. With that being said I still think there are manipulations that are possible that may have changed the way the game plays short term (fast seed value changes etc) and still be legal by the definition of the rules).

On the machines that I play I've noticed that every once in a while the machine would pause, the light on the bill accepter would go out and you could not deal a new hand for 10 seconds or so. It started appearing on a few games and now seems to have spread across all of the games I play. While I don't think that by itself is a manipulation it does tell me that that machine itself has likely been updated and who knows what else may have been changed.

We've spent a lot of time over the years looking for a smoking gun and really haven't found one. Maybe some smoldering but nothing that says "ah ha". Another good point that was made is that do you really think it could be kept quiet across the entire industry. After all, the manufactures would most likely have to tell their customers "we've made some changes to our code that will likely increase your revenue", even if they didn't come out and outline what they were doing. Wouldn't you think that would eventually get out? I would think it would.

Now there very well may be a downside to all of this from the casino's point of view. The casinos are empty. Crickets. I no longer see my regulars and are usually the only one playing in my row of machines. So there is the potential that if they are messing with things it will backfire on them and they will lose in the long-run because of loss of players. I'm sure it's showing up in their reporting and we'll if that changes anything. After all, very few are going to play games that never really pay anything and just produce bad session after bad session.

Of course everything I've written is purely conjecture on my part and may just be a pile of bunk. It is, my best and most educated look at what I think is happening with VP at this point.

Roveer

[Tedlark]

notes you and DaBurglar should read up on Illinois and their gaming regulations. After you read up on that you can then read up on how many times traditional casino expansion in the state has been defeated. Before you say that it was defeated by a restaurant lobby I will also say that is incorrect because casino expansion in Illinois has been defeated (either through not gaining enough votes in the state legislature or via Gubernatorial veto) long before, and several times, before gaming machines went into restaurants.

Also please consider the fact that the City of Chicago does not have ONE SINGLE casino inside city limits. Why is that?   

[DaBurglar]

notes you and DaBurglar should read up on Illinois and their gaming regulations. After you read up on that you can then read up on how many times traditional casino expansion in the state has been defeated. Before you say that it was defeated by a restaurant lobby I will also say that is incorrect because casino expansion in Illinois has been defeated (either through not gaining enough votes in the state legislature or via Gubernatorial veto) long before, and several times, before gaming machines went into restaurants.

Also please consider the fact that the City of Chicago does not have ONE SINGLE casino inside city limits. Why is that?   ????    Illinois is a total mess, its government is a mess, its financial situation is a total disaster, and they way the State of Illinois has handled casino gambling since it was first voted and approved is a complete disaster.They do not TAX casino nearly enough in illinois to first and foremost reap the revenue benefits that should justify having casinos in the first place!   Many people believe if Illinois taxed casinos the way other states do, Illinois could gain some relief for its massive PENSION funding shortfalls.     Chicago doe snot have a casino because every time State Senator Robert rita proposes a expansion of gambling to include a Chicago Casino, it gets voted DOWN because enough people in Illinois are STILL genuinely opposed to GAMBLING in all its forms and feel it is a VERY BAD THING!    This is true Ted and you know it......as a video poker player who lives in Illinois, YOU, Mr. Tedlark are in a minority in terms of who approves or disapporves of gambling as a form of entertainment.read this article and it will help clear things up for you: http://www.rebootillinois.com/2014/04/2 ... woes/6792/

[DaBurglar]

  To answer your question about whether the machines have changed in some way. I'll say this.

If you've read some of my crazier posts I have put forth the notion that while the manufacturers are technically playing by the rules there is the possibility of some hanky panky that would allow them to still meet the requirements of the laws and yet possibly effect the outcome of our short term play. All this while having no effect on the long term statistical outcome of the games. And remember, this is what the manufacturers are judged on. There is a report or "birth sheet" on games that the manufacturers create before putting the game into circulation which is used to qualify that there is no defect with the game. I think it's also called a PAR Sheet.

I have also waxed poetic about RNG's number strings, seed values and the like and what I can say is that while I believe the games are not rigged in the simplest sense (a button, a setting, removing cards from the deck), I do believe there is a possibility that they are fiddling around with the seed value and when/how it is set/reset. In the long run (millions of hands) it all evens out and gives an expected distribution. In the short run (our typical session), it would seem possible to me that it could appear different from machines we played years ago. This technically could give the casino's more money, because we keep playing for the big win that we used to get. I am an example of this. Since Oct last year I had some decent wins and poured most if not all back in trying to get the bigger ones I was accustomed to. I no longer do that. I'm modifying my play to adapt to what I consider a change made by the manufactures. Remember, I used to have a pocket full of W2G's after my sessions. I'm not seeing that at this point. Now, it's also possible that we are in a period of poor number strings based on seed values and in 2 months from now I could be back to piles of paper. That's always a possibility. I'm just saying that I believe it's possible that it could be coming from the manufacturer AND still be following all of the rules.

Here's an interesting fact. I posted about this a while back. My miserable play is not only happening in the casino's, but on my iPad app and also on a machine that I own. It's an older machine so it's not getting any sort of updates or changes to the code. I haven't seen A's with a kicker in the longest time and I bonk on 3OAK (10 handed) literally a dozen or more times in a session. The moderator has pointed out (rightly so), that this phenomenon is further proof that I'm just at a statistical low point. Technically this may very well be the fact and it's hard for us to stay objective when you have so many losing sessions, but remember, statistically our sessions are very very small samplings of a much bigger picture. At this point I'm in a "take the money and run" posture, but it's very hard to do when you want to start a big session and start thinking the big hits that you used to get are around the corner. For me at least that has not been the case so I have had to adjust my play.

I've seen how my casino does upgrades. They come wheeling out with big carts and do an entire motherboard swap. From having been inside these machines making individual changes normally requires a "key chip" and while the newer machines may no longer be that way, they still seem to swap motherboards. This would make sense, they do all the work in the back and hit the floor as quickly as possible as to not interfere with play. I have never seen any settings for VP at least that would allow manipulation of any sort. Just change pay tables and denominations. Lots of other feature settings but nothing that would allow manipulation of the game. With that being said I still think there are manipulations that are possible that may have changed the way the game plays short term (fast seed value changes etc) and still be legal by the definition of the rules).

On the machines that I play I've noticed that every once in a while the machine would pause, the light on the bill accepter would go out and you could not deal a new hand for 10 seconds or so. It started appearing on a few games and now seems to have spread across all of the games I play. While I don't think that by itself is a manipulation it does tell me that that machine itself has likely been updated and who knows what else may have been changed.

We've spent a lot of time over the years looking for a smoking gun and really haven't found one. Maybe some smoldering but nothing that says "ah ha". Another good point that was made is that do you really think it could be kept quiet across the entire industry. After all, the manufactures would most likely have to tell their customers "we've made some changes to our code that will likely increase your revenue", even if they didn't come out and outline what they were doing. Wouldn't you think that would eventually get out? I would think it would.

Now there very well may be a downside to all of this from the casino's point of view. The casinos are empty. Crickets. I no longer see my regulars and are usually the only one playing in my row of machines. So there is the potential that if they are messing with things it will backfire on them and they will lose in the long-run because of loss of players. I'm sure it's showing up in their reporting and we'll if that changes anything. After all, very few are going to play games that never really pay anything and just produce bad session after bad session.

Of course everything I've written is purely conjecture on my part and may just be a pile of bunk. It is, my best and most educated look at what I think is happening with VP at this point.

RoveerRoveer, awesome post.......You do at least admit that something is amiss, and I actually like the way you describe it, how the casinos and game manufacturers are able to reap some short term gains that cause players to lose a lot more  WITHOUT actually breaking any laws or Regs....THAT in a nutshell is what I have been trying to say and what I believe as well.I agree that whatever the casinos are doing to cause us to all be losing in the same manner at the same time is going to HURT them in the long run (it already has and continues to do so).....they can only bleed a dead a animal so long and then there really truly is NOTHING left, NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING  and no amount of tricky promotions or comp giveaways etc will fix that.I also applaud you being able to admit you are in a slump and losing right now, and I especially like how you mention the complete lack of w-2s the last 6 months really sticks out like a sore thumb.   In my mind,  the w-2s / Handpay drought is more PROOF than the simple "am I winning or losing more" question because w-2s are easy to count and easy to see if you have MORE or less in a given period of time (i.e.  the last 5 years  versus previous periods)In my mind this settles  it:   it is clear that players believe today's Video Poker scene is MUCH harder for a player to win (or at least MINIMIZE losses) than at any time in the past, and it is due to the differences in the manner in which machines operate.   This doe snot mean it is RIGGED or there are Regs being broken,   but something is clearly working against us that was NOT there in the past, or not as big a deal

[Tedlark]

[QUOTE=Tedlark] notes you and DaBurglar should read up on Illinois and their gaming regulations. After you read up on that you can then read up on how many times traditional casino expansion in the state has been defeated. Before you say that it was defeated by a restaurant lobby I will also say that is incorrect because casino expansion in Illinois has been defeated (either through not gaining enough votes in the state legislature or via Gubernatorial veto) long before, and several times, before gaming machines went into restaurants.

Also please consider the fact that the City of Chicago does not have ONE SINGLE casino inside city limits. Why is that?   ????    Illinois is a total mess, its government is a mess, its financial situation is a total disaster, and they way the State of Illinois has handled casino gambling since it was first voted and approved is a complete disaster.They do not TAX casino nearly enough in illinois to first and foremost reap the revenue benefits that should justify having casinos in the first place!   Many people believe if Illinois taxed casinos the way other states do, Illinois could gain some relief for its massive PENSION funding shortfalls.     Chicago doe snot have a casino because every time State Senator Robert rita proposes a expansion of gambling to include a Chicago Casino, it gets voted DOWN because enough people in Illinois are STILL genuinely opposed to GAMBLING in all its forms and feel it is a VERY BAD THING!    This is true Ted and you know it......as a video poker player who lives in Illinois, YOU, Mr. Tedlark are in a minority in terms of who approves or disapporves of gambling as a form of entertainment.read this article and it will help clear things up for you: http://www.rebootillinois.com/2014/04/2 ... woes/6792/ [/QUOTE]
    Ehh, reading one article about Illinois casino gaming does not mean you know EVERYTHING DaBurglar. Youo may think you do but, sorry.   It's true that the last gaming bill that was brought for a vote was sponsored by State Rep Robert Rita but he was only thrust into the position of bill sponsor less than 2 years ago. Previously the lead sponsor of the gaming bills that did not pass or were vetoed by the Governor was a man from the north suburbs.    As for the tax Illinois levies casinos on revenue, it is one of the highest in the country, if not THE highest. Also in line with taxes, casinos are charged a licensing fee and this number is in the hundreds of millions.    There was an Illinois casino gaming license that was dormant for several years. This was because the license was smack dab in the middle of a legal dispute because a local politician tried to angle to get a casino in his town and he got caught and the whole house of cards came crashing down. That particular license is now held by the gaming company owned by Neil Blum, you should recognize his name because he also owns a casino in the PA area.    There are no casinos located near our border states that have casino gambling. Misouri and Iowa are the exceptions and this is only because the Illinois casinos were up and running before the casinos in these neighboring states were. The Indiana casinos have a freeway leading right to them that many Illinois gamblers drive every day and this is because there are no Illinois casinos nearby to absorb these players.    Illinois casinos, by law, are allowed no more than 1,200 gaming positions, entirely. Included in this count are such things as: craps tables (14 gaming positions, BJ tables 7 gaming positions, etc.). A portion inside Mr. Rita's bill would have expanded the number of gaming positions in existing casinos by the way.    So DaBurglar that is a little primer on Illinois gaming for you. Now you know more about Illinois casino gaming than you know about New Jersey casino gaming. 

[notes1]

ted, you have made a number of good posts over my time on this site, but holding up the state of ILL, and especially CHICAGO as some sort of ethical/regulatory model is really a strectch.   -states need revenue- an article in USA TODAY regarding financial stability, lists ILL as one of the five states in 'the bottom of the barrel'. the states financial difficulties are well known. according to NCSL.org website, ILL had a tax rate on casinos, that could reach as high as 50% of adjusted gross receipts (AGR- gross after paying winnings). in 2012, taxes on casinos contributed $574m to state coffers (gaming assoc).  -corruption- give me a break, 4 of the last 7 governors have been convicted and imprisioned. corruption is legendary. i have no idea why chicago has no casinos.  i have nothing against your state, one of my brothers lives there and i keep hoping the cubs will win one for their loyal fans.  but, i will stick by my original points, ALL states need the money, gaming is a stealth tax to provide that money, the public will overlook a lot to get jobs and i would not count on regulators to bite the hand that feeds them.

[DaBurglar]

      Ehh, reading one article about Illinois casino gaming does not mean you know EVERYTHING DaBurglar. Youo may think you do but, sorry.   It's true that the last gaming bill that was brought for a vote was sponsored by State Rep Robert Rita but he was only thrust into the position of bill sponsor less than 2 years ago. Previously the lead sponsor of the gaming bills that did not pass or were vetoed by the Governor was a man from the north suburbs.    As for the tax Illinois levies casinos on revenue, it is one of the highest in the country, if not THE highest. Also in line with taxes, casinos are charged a licensing fee and this number is in the hundreds of millions.    There was an Illinois casino gaming license that was dormant for several years. This was because the license was smack dab in the middle of a legal dispute because a local politician tried to angle to get a casino in his town and he got caught and the whole house of cards came crashing down. That particular license is now held by the gaming company owned by Neil Blum, you should recognize his name because he also owns a casino in the PA area.    There are no casinos located near our border states that have casino gambling. Misouri and Iowa are the exceptions and this is only because the Illinois casinos were up and running before the casinos in these neighboring states were. The Indiana casinos have a freeway leading right to them that many Illinois gamblers drive every day and this is because there are no Illinois casinos nearby to absorb these players.    Illinois casinos, by law, are allowed no more than 1,200 gaming positions, entirely. Included in this count are such things as: craps tables (14 gaming positions, BJ tables 7 gaming positions, etc.). A portion inside Mr. Rita's bill would have expanded the number of gaming positions in existing casinos by the way.    So DaBurglar that is a little primer on Illinois gaming for you. Now you know more about Illinois casino gaming than you know about New Jersey casino gaming. PffftWHERE DID I SAY I KNOW EVERYTHING ABOUT ILLINOIS CASINOS?    You are really an insecure person....your state is a total mess, cannot solve a darn thing, and it is well known......Illinois' problems REGULARLY make the local and national news (as notes1 also points out in his post).....you do not need to live there to understand things.But....POINT OF FACT (ohh love saying that)  I have read MORE than one article and so I categorically REJECT your version of things.....so that settles it.   No need to discuss anything anymore, right?  Ok   on we go.....

[notes1]

roveer, thanks for responding to my request. lots of interesting thoughts, but as you say, nothing definitive.  let me ask you this and i will grant you that it may just be a simple answer, coming from a simple guy. as you stated and all of us have noticed, there are far fewer VP  players. other than reduced paytables, could it be that with fewer players, fewer hands played, it just takes longer to get thru a cycle on the machine.