Cheating in the NFL, Deflategate - redux

[Carcounter]

Hold on a minute, DB. The Giants outplayed the Pats both games. Go back and look at the yards gained, time of possession etc. they outplayed them period. Also, talk about being lucky, the Pats never should have won last year and the first 3 wins were by a total of 9 points. They could have lost any or all of those games if not for breaks that went their way. Now I know why' Tedlark is so exasperated with you.

[DaBurglar]

Hold on a minute, DB. The Giants outplayed the Pats both games. Go back and look at the yards gained, time of possession etc. they outplayed them period. Also, talk about being lucky, the Pats never should have won last year and the first 3 wins were by a total of 9 points. They could have lost any or all of those games if not for breaks that went their way. Now I know why' Tedlark is so exasperated with you.No you do not know why Tedlark is so exasperated, because even Ted does not know why, but it has very little to do with football  (and besides, he'll deny being exasperated with me by the way, just as he denies me having "ANY" impact or influence on him even though his posting history shows him either to be a delusional liar or a schizphrenic.)You are entitled to your perspective on what and how the PAts won their Superbowls, and how your Giants apparently stacked up against them......but if you are as knowledgable a fan as you want to portray yourself as, then you must know that both STATS by themselves often give misleading or incomplete pictures of a game,  AND you must know that the final score of any single game often does not indicate (or gives a incomplete picture) of just who truly was the dominant (or even Better team!  sometimes the inferior team wins.....)The patriots last 6 Superbowls are now known as "Classics", hands down six of the all time greatest GAMES played in Super Bowl history, due to the competitiveness and closeness of the outcomes.   The first win in 2001 against the HEAVILY favored Rams' greatest show on Turf was Belichick's greatest coaching job ever and the PAts defense  outplayed the Rams offense to win the title.    The second win in 2003 against Carolina was indeed a nailbiter, but the Patriots outplayed the panthers when it mattered most......and the Third win in four years, in 2004 against the eagles, was NOT nearly as close as the final score indicated (24-21 Pats), and you know this if you saw the game.....The Pats forced four turnovers and the eagles never could overcome this.Focusing on the two classics they LOST to the Giants, I said the Giants were lucky to win both DUE TO THE TWO INFAMOUS CATCHES which everyone knows about, and they were......but you are correct in part in that the Giant's defense in both games did indeed outplay the Patriot's Offense and gave Brady lots of trouble....but in both games the PATRIOTS defense also did a good job against the Giants offense, which is why both Giants wins came on Touchdown drives in the final minute OF EACH GAME.....it does not get closer than that!     But come on......!   That David Tyree 4th down top of his helmet miracle......!   You know the Giants lucked out there!     Not to mention the fact that the following Super Bowl win, in 2011, the Giants almost did not even make the playoffs, finishing with a paltry 9-7 record and at one point in the season after starting 6-2 but then flaming out and winding up at 7-7, everyone wanted Tom Coughlin fired!!!   They were lucky to make the playoffs with their 9-7 record and were helped by several other teams CHOKING down the stretch while they limped in as well....consider that the previous year, 2010, the Giants were 10-6 and failed to make the playoffs!!!   The fact it, they were not a terribly good team consistency wise in 2011 and just happened to get HOT at the right time in the playoffs.....but hey, a win is a win in the super bowl!

[Tedlark]

How right you are DaBurglar; a win is a win in the Super Bowl.

Chicago Bears          46
New England Patriots   10

[DaBurglar]

How right you are DaBurglar; a win is a win in the Super Bowl.

Chicago Bears          46
New England Patriots   10

Big whoop, what's Chicago's record since 1985 in Super Bowls?    Besides The bears were lucky in that game too, seriously, everyone knows it, including Mike Ditka.....just ask Him Ted, next time you run into Coach Ditka in Chicago at some place downtown that sells dead animal meat for food.....stroll up to coach ditka and say to him "Coach the 85 Bears were LUCKY to go 15-1, weren't they?   Make sure you stand still when you ask him this question and hold your chin up slightly for him......Anyone who knows football remembers that the Miami Dolphins beat the 1985 bears (clobbered them actually) in a Monday Night game, where Marino lit up the vaunted '46' defense and embarrassed Buddy Ryan, Ditka and the whole team.     Interestingly, it was Miami who then subsequently LOST the AFC championship 31-14 to....ahem, NEW ENGLAND!    ergo, one could say technically that the Pats were at some point superior to the 85 Bears prior to the super bowl......But no doubt about it, the 85 Bears were LUCKY when they played new england .....they were lucky when New England allowed all those sacks, and most lucky when new england decided to turn the ball over to Da bears  so often.....New england GAVE the game away to the Bears (maybe they felt bad for Da Bears because they were, afterall, Da bears)but the rest is history......after the 85 season, chicago fell apart and their success was fleeting, a one hit wonder, one-and-done!

[Carcounter]

DB, I do consider myself a good NFL fan and do know the history of the league and past Superbowls. As far as the infamous catch, Rodney Harrison had as much a right to that ball as David Tyree. Tyree got it. In the first Superbowl Eli led the Giants on 2 80 yard plus drives in the 4th quarter to bring his team from behind and put it ahead. Will probably never happen again. Then Belichick has single coverage on Plaxico Burress on the game winning touchdown catch. Just be fair, the game was not a fluke. On the first play of the game Brady threw an incomplete pass and wound up with a big grass stain on his ass, cause that's where he wound up. I knew then we had a game. As far as the second SB goes the Giants had the ball for 37 minutes, the Pats 23 min. Usually a good measure of who is controlling the game. Look I'm giving the Patriots credit, they are just not in the class of the Lombardi Packers or Chuck Noll Steelers. that's all.

[DaBurglar]

DB, I do consider myself a good NFL fan and do know the history of the league and past Superbowls. As far as the infamous catch, Rodney Harrison had as much a right to that ball as David Tyree. Tyree got it. In the first Superbowl Eli led the Giants on 2 80 yard plus drives in the 4th quarter to bring his team from behind and put it ahead. Will probably never happen again. Then Belichick has single coverage on Plaxico Burress on the game winning touchdown catch. Just be fair, the game was not a fluke. On the first play of the game Brady threw an incomplete pass and wound up with a big grass stain on his ass, cause that's where he wound up. I knew then we had a game. As far as the second SB goes the Giants had the ball for 37 minutes, the Pats 23 min. Usually a good measure of who is controlling the game. Look I'm giving the Patriots credit, they are just not in the class of the Lombardi Packers or Chuck Noll Steelers. that's all.This thread is getting a second wind (and third....and fourth...) because the NFL simply refuses to let go of its irrational hatred of New England and Tom Brady, and resentment on the part of the Rest of the NFL towards New England due to the Patriots' 15 plus years of consistent success that is now unmathced in the history of the game....in short, the rest of the NFL is sick of the dominance that New England and Bill Belichick holds as it remains year in and year out a SuperBowl contender, with NO......(repeat) NO "off years"  or "drop off"  that the rest of the NFL teams seem to experience once they have a string of 4 or 5 good/great years.     Belichick quite simply is the best coach EVER in the NFL and is a genius level tactician and team builder/talent evaluator,  which is doubly amazing in this current era of the Salary cap!!!!!So to address the comment above by carcounter, yes, you are correct carcounter, the Patriots are NOT in the same class or category or level of success as the Lombardi Pack or Noll's steelers......the Patriots are at least several levels ABOVE and beyond!!!! From 2001 (when the Patriots won their first Super Bowl after the 9/11 attacks)  thru January 2015 (last years awesome Super Bowl Win):     New England has never had a Losing season, New England made the Playoffs every year except one (in 2008, when Tom Brady was out for the year with his knee and the team went 11-5 and somehow STILL managed not to make the playoffs!!!    the best proof yet of how great Belichick is...);   the Patriots have made the AFC championship game nine times in the last 14 seasons, have won it six times to appear in SIX super Bowls and have won FOUR of the six Super Bowls......in short, unparalleled  Success!

[DaBurglar]

And since the last month's worth of news and updates regarding the ongoing "deflategate" saga is looking pretty good for Tom Brady and the Patriots and LOUSY for "King Goodell" and the NFL fools, I will be looking forward for Ted Lark, et al to be issuing a retraction and apology for all the erroneous and false statements and conjecture about the whole "Soft ball" / cheating  ordeal that was instigated by both Baltimore Ravens personnel and the NFL "Anti-New England" conspiracy proponents.In case you people missed it......a Federal Judge has taken the NFL and Goodell out to the woodshed in recent weeks during a series of high profile courtroom meetings where the judge was urging the litigants to "settle" the whole matter ASAP (with emphasis on the NFL drastically reducing its demand of a four game suspension for Brady), exposing the NFL and Goodell for the biased, miserable and borderline INCOMPETENT fools they are, showing just how pathetic and full of holes all the "proof" and all  the so-called "Case" against Brady actually is.....I'm predicting Brady will either serve a simple, ONE GAME SUSPENSION for NOT complying with turning over his cell phone (which he did because it contained potentially embarrasing PERSONAL texts between Brady and Giselle and possibly, other "Women"...), or Brady will not even serve ONE game but will simply pay a fine and  put an end to the whole fiasco.     No matter what, Brady will come out of this in better shape than Roger Goodell and the rest of the NFL that is out to do to Brady in the Courtroom what cannot be done on the playing field.

[Tedlark]

DaBurglar please feel free to hold your breath as you await a retraction from me.

P.S. Having a GREAT time in Las Vegas, have hit some nice hands.

[Carcounter]

DB, I don't hate Bill Belichick or Tom Brady. Belichick was with the Giants for 12 years and was a big part of the 1986 and 1990 Super Bowls. As far as Brady is concerned, I really don't care if he used deflated footballs. A Quarterback should have some leeway in how they like the balls. Without good quarterback play, the NFL is boring. Just ask last years Arizona Cardinals. Just putting the Patriots "run" in perspective. Above the Lombardi Packers? No way. 5 championships in 9 years. Lombardi never lost a playoff game after the 1960 championship against the Eagles. I think he was 9 and 1.As far as the 2011 Giants, yeah they got hot at the right time, but they beat the Falcons at home, went to Green Bay and destroyed the Packers, won a brutal , physical game at San Francisco and had the ball for 37 minutes against the Pats in the Super Bowl. At the end of the year, they were the best team in the NFL, not the Pats.

[DaBurglar]

DB, I don't hate Bill Belichick or Tom Brady. Belichick was with the Giants for 12 years and was a big part of the 1986 and 1990 Super Bowls. As far as Brady is concerned, I really don't care if he used deflated footballs. A Quarterback should have some leeway in how they like the balls. Without good quarterback play, the NFL is boring. Just ask last years Arizona Cardinals. Just putting the Patriots "run" in perspective. Above the Lombardi Packers? No way. 5 championships in 9 years. Lombardi never lost a playoff game after the 1960 championship against the Eagles. I think he was 9 and 1.As far as the 2011 Giants, yeah they got hot at the right time, but they beat the Falcons at home, went to Green Bay and destroyed the Packers, won a brutal , physical game at San Francisco and had the ball for 37 minutes against the Pats in the Super Bowl. At the end of the year, they were the best team in the NFL, not the Pats.The 2011 Giants had a far better DEFENSE than the PATS, I'll concede that much, which generally means a championship in the Super Bowl since defense wins championships.  But no way do I concede anything on the 2007/2008 Superbowl with 16-0 vs 10-6.   The Giants defense played the game of their lives in that one and copied the strategy Rex Ryan used earlier that year when he was the Defensive coordinator with Baltimore (a game which almost ruined the PATS 16-0 run and which Baltimore probably could have won if they had any clue on offense.)      But that's the point, the GAME involves BOTH offense and DEFENSE, with a slight nod to DEFENSE being the slightly more important.If the 2007 Pats played the 2007 Giants in 10 games, the Pats would have won at least 7 of the 10 games......and the 2007 Patriots DEFENSE was almost AS good as the GIANTS Defense that year, and they held Manning in check pretty much the whole game until that last, LUCKY drive, with the BLOWN coverage on Plaxico after the "miracle" tyree catch which followed Eli's LUCKY 4th and 10 ESCAPE from being totally sacked!       But no big deal, the BEST team does not always win.....I will freely admit the Patriots FIRST Super Bowl Championship, in 2001 versus the RAMS, was an excellent example of the best team NOT winning......no doubt, that Rams team had more OVERALL talent than the Patriots that year, but the PATS came in with the better game plan and played BETTER overall TEAM football with very very few mistakes and self inflicted wounds......basically the 2001 Pats did to the RAMS (greatest show on turf)   what your Giants did in 2007 to the PATS!    the similarities are striking......I cannot comment on your PACKERS analogy (the 60s & lombardi).......that's simply a different (VERY DIFFERENT) era and league, and the game today is far more complex and players have far more leverage and importance in terms of salary and contract, and the fact that the PATS have consistently won year after year and remained at or near the top with players coming and going and coming and going (whereas in Lombardi's day, he had ABSOLUTE control over everything and knew year in and year out who his players would be) makes what New England has (and is still doing) all the more amazing.