Can VP machines be programmed for low return?

[shadowman]

Now let me tell you about my recent VP experiences in AC these last two trips I've made there (especially this past weekends visit  07-24  thru 07-29)
 
The VP games there are definitely 100% fuggin rigged.  ....
 
No, of course it doesnt PROVE rigged, but it sure doesnt disprove it either.
 


Sorry you had a bad trip. However, your belief system is really off the rails. You ignore the regulations, you ignore the many reports of success seen here every week and you ignore variance even though you appear to understand what it means. It's got to be rigged machines. Really?
 
One can only wonder why you continue to play.
 
BTW, every VP player has trips like the one you described. I lost 8 out 9 sessions earlier this year. A person's results over short periods of time are tied to a few high paying hands. Get them and you do fine, miss out on a few and you will do poorly.
 
 

[DaBurglar]

Hyperbole     satire     passive-agressive    Exagerated humor    Sarcasm   Emotional venting   irony Are you familiar with any of these terms??  More to the point, do you see, understand and recognize them when you encounter them in the written form?  You are ****** hilarious..... You know what, I've seen the light, you set me straight, holy ******I cannot believe the error of my ways.   I thank my frosted lucky charms I came to this site and found this man dedicated to the promotion of Video poker as the only vice in this world in which you can have absolute faith that it is 100% on the level and you will always lose your money safely.   My belief system really IS off the rails and you are right to wonder why I still play.  but that's changed as of this moment thanks to you....when I can lose 8 out of 9 times like you did and still have the nuts to ask people questions (one can only wonder why you still play) like you asked me and thus, show them how crazy they are, well, thats when I will know I have arrived.   When people get involved in online debates and pissing contests and what not, they tend to forget what was written or posted in the past and tend to only focus on the last most recent point or post.   What i believe and why I still play i've covered ad nauseum, and what I've seen / experienced / been told / deduced I've laid out.   I understand all the issues here., regulatory, business, and most importantly Math (I've a BA in Economics from an obscure school in Cambridge Massachusetts on the Charles River where Matt Damon and Ben Affleck wanted to visit to "beat up some smart kids" in Good Will Hunting), as well as a lot of computer-related business experience I alluded to in the past.  What BELIEF systems.   While I am, and DO in fact, subscribe to everything you say as valid and correct, I do not simply allow it to stop there and go no further.....I am willing to acknowledge and even see and construct actual FEASIBLE scenarios of how, why and in what way Video Poker can be manipulated and rigged to give the casinos a yield far greater than what they have a right to expect.   I believe the majority of casinos STILL do offer the game exactly how it should be offered.....I also believe it is possible, and is becoming Increasingly LIKELY, that there will be, or already has been, cases where rigged games exist.   Somewhere, somehow......thats all i am saying.    And truth be told, since you obviously didnt get my exagerated outburts of venting venomous frustration, the machines I played at the Trop last week that repeatedly dealt over and over and over big fat ZEROs, they probably were NOT rigged, and here's why:  IF a casino chooses to alter a VP machine to give them greater return outside of simply manipulating pay tables, they wouldnt make it so blatantly obvious whereby a machine is intentionally programmed to TAKE almost ALL of a players money in a short time and give nothing back.  No, what my friend who used to work at Stations casinos pointed out to me in terms of messing/rigging with VP machines, a casino would likely do something like drastically reduce or eliminate the frequency of a certain specific HAND, for instance, four of a kinds of a specific type (like eliminate all Quad 6s,7s and/or 8s....this would be hardly noticeable by even the most vigilant record keeper, like me, but would over the long haul greatly increase a machines return.)   I just want to hear/read you say it is POSSIBLE tohat something like this could or has happened and no one noticed or got wind.....thats all!   I know it isnt probable, but just because a regulation exists and people read it and acknoledge it doesnt make it automatic in its application.  These gaming commissions are themselves flawed, limited entities, and while Nevada's is certainly the most widespread, experienced and accomplished, other states and cities enforcement entities & systems are definitely more questionable and limited. Just say its possible man!!!   I BELIEVE Oswald acted alone, but I am also still willing to at least hold out the possibility that there still is something remaining to give life to the other alternative theories and scenarios of how JFK bought the farm.....There are no grassy knolls in the Tropicana, but there are plenty of people involved, and PEOPLE are really the root of this issue we are discussing. 

[Webman]

Using creative words to bypass the swear filters isn't allowed. Thanks for your understanding. 

[faygo]

[QUOTE=DaBurglar] Now let me tell you about my recent VP experiences in AC these last two trips I've made there (especially this past weekends visit  07-24  thru 07-29)
 
The VP games there are definitely 100% fuggin rigged.  ....
 
No, of course it doesnt PROVE rigged, but it sure doesnt disprove it either.
 



 
 
 
 [/QUOTE]
 Of course they are rigged. Last two trips to AC my bride and I only managed 5 Royal Flushes 

[BillyJoe]

[QUOTE=shadowman][QUOTE=DaBurglar] Now let me tell you about my recent VP experiences in AC these last two trips I've made there (especially this past weekends visit  07-24  thru 07-29)
 
The VP games there are definitely 100% fuggin rigged.  ....
 
No, of course it doesnt PROVE rigged, but it sure doesnt disprove it either.
   [/QUOTE]
 
Of course they are rigged. Last two trips to AC my bride and I only managed 5 Royal Flushes  [/QUOTE]
Just a guess on my part, but I don't think that made him feel any better.  

[dredwing]

All I can say is living in Vegas for quite along time and playing VP most everyday, the last few years have been crap, particularly the last few months.  Locals tend to play daily and at numerous locations, not to mention we all talk to and know people who work in this industry.Nobody I know can win a cent anymore.  Many workers tell me they can't remember the last time they filled out a tax form.  Which is probably why most casinos only hire foreign floor labor now, cause they will tow the company line to their grave.  In the old days if you had a bad night you could walk through a casino and still see numerous hand payouts on taxable jackpots, you will not see this anymore.  And supposedly we're to believe everything is the same?Don't get me wrong, you can still have lots of fun going to a casino, but VP seems to have been pegged for termination.  Might have to start looking into those penny slots eventually

[DaBurglar]

 Of course they are rigged. Last two trips to AC my bride and I only managed 5 Royal Flushes 
  Congrats  This no more proves the machines are not rigged anymore than my four-plus days of losing with over 71% zerovalue hands proves they are rigged. No one has the time or endurance to lay out every possible scenario and argument as to why we can, or cannot trust every VP machine we encounter these days in any given casino around the country.  But as I alluded to earlier, a machine altered by a casino to provide greater returns than normal over time would STILL likely deal hands such as ROyals and some quads, so as not to arouse supsicion (not that they need to worry about that anyway since player complaints to gaming enforcement are essentially logged and forgotten, and gaming agencies dont go fishing in casinos looking for rigged machines these days...)   I've since calmed down and chalked my lost weekend (my VERY ABYSMALLY lost weekend) up to crappy luck, period.  My YTD profit is now kaput, and all the people I was with in AC this weekend swear they will never ever go back there, but hey, that's variance right?   But posts like the previous one concerning Vegas locals and their recent conclusions, plus the continued economic situation and the state of the "gaming" industry will continue to raise doubts and push this issue to a tipping point. Casinos are, without a DOUBT, trying to subtly get rid of Video Poker or otherwise curtail its prominence in your average casino.  This has definitely been happening in AC;  The Atlantic Club ditched completely almost 60% of all its video poker games and the ones it has left are nothing special (although they do still have the Dolphin bar Video Poker going so booyah!)     The Tropicana removed 50% of its game offerings on the VP menus throughout the entire joint and ditched the few good paytables it had......Trump Plaza (aside from going down the tubes in general) removed many machines and took away the 10 to 15 individual paytables featuring 9-6 JOB and replaced it with crappy paytables. Caesars AC is gearing up to take away the machines all along the wall near the horsey parlor including the progressive Temple Poker machines that line the wall ... anyone care to guess what will supposedly be taking their place when they get around to doing this?  Games like "Stinkin RIch" and "Betty the Yeti" and all its 1 cent penny ante BS, all giving the casino a 14% return on every dollar shoved into them....Betty-the-freakin-YETI?!?!?   Come on.... I could go on.....and on....and on     But, for now, consider what would happen if they all just removed all Video Poker overnight and told players "we no longer will offer that."    They'd lose a lot of business, possibly even among some players who dont even play VP but whose family/friends/spouses do .....so rather than do this cataclysmic action, but still faced with a urgent, pressing need to raise profits or die, some of them do the unconscionable and screw with the VP machines' returns in ways other than Paytable slaughtering....how would we even know?   Paytables are still not as low as they can be set and still have people willing to play them, I've personally seen people STILL playing JOB machines set at 6/5!!!!! it's pathetic but sadly a reality.....but eventually they will reach a tipping point and then who knows.... Which is why I can visualize a possibility of a casino raising paytables back up to good levels, but doing nefarious things with the games' inner workings.   Again, how would any of us truly know? Its all about Belief my friends, and faith.

[BillyJoe]

All I can say is living in Vegas for quite along time and playing VP most everyday, the last few years have been crap, particularly the last few months.  Locals tend to play daily and at numerous locations, not to mention we all talk to and know people who work in this industry.

Nobody I know can win a cent anymore.  Many workers tell me they can't remember the last time they filled out a tax form.  Which is probably why most casinos only hire foreign floor labor now, cause they will tow the company line to their grave.  In the old days if you had a bad night you could walk through a casino and still see numerous hand payouts on taxable jackpots, you will not see this anymore.  And supposedly we're to believe everything is the same?

Don't get me wrong, you can still have lots of fun going to a casino, but VP seems to have been pegged for termination.  Might have to start looking into those penny slots eventually

I have absolutely no knowledge of whether VP has changed, but if you are using handpay frequency as your rationale for some 'tightening', I think I have another explanation.
 
I see a lot of people playing VP at a low denom level. The casinos have installed many nickel VP machines, where it is pretty tough to hit a $1200 JP. Also, I see a lot of people playing VP with one-coin rather than max bet. 
 
I see a trend in casinos to try and limit their high payout exposure. Many multi-denom machines now limit the number of games that they offer at the higher-denom levels. On my last trip, I looked at a machine which had denom choices of $0.05, $0.10, $0.25, $0.50 and $1. If you started at $0.05, there were many games to choose from, including TDB. But as you sequenced higher through the denoms, the list of games got smaller. By the time you reached $1, there was only one game to choose.     

[BillyJoe]

Betty-the-freakin-YETI?!?!?   Come on....
 
Do they have that in Hi Limit as $5 anywhere? I gotta try that one..

[Onenickelmiracl]

Don't any of you know of AC coin rigging machines to not pay royals about 20 years ago and the man who was state witness was murdered in Vegas? I'm sure it can happen because it has happened before and to maintain trade secrets, the public has no right to know.