Paytables mean NOTHING

[Tedlark]

  DaBurglar did I ever state anywhere that I had disdain for your posts about AC? My position has always been the same: why do you continue to play in AC if you think it's rigged, crooked, or otherwise askewed? I don't have any contempt for you or your posts.
 
  I am having a hard time understanding why you claim such a high dead hand ratio when you are playing Deuces Wild? Who knows, maybe your recordkeeping is accurate and we are all wrong.
 
  As for whatever physical limitations you face in your life I can guarantee that you are not alone here my friend and those faced with same, or similar, challenges, take whatever steps they feel are necessary to get them through.
 
  I am wondering why you are always so defensive when other forum members ask you to back up your numbers or stats.

[Quad Deuces]

So you had a bad run.  BIG DEAL.I asked for specifics.  What EXACT game(s) were you playing, for how long, at what denomination and number of lines.  I'm just curious how outside of reasonable it was for you to blow through $500. The careful notes you took while doing all this scientific research should include at least basic session info.I know I've lost at least $300 playing 25c FPDW for a couple hours before.  I didn't blame the casino or the city in which the casino was located.

[tshock]

I'm new on here and don't know any of you guys but I don't understand why many of you seem to come down hard on DaBurglar.  He's only giving you what he experiences and observes in AC.  I find most of what he says to be reasonable such as:
 
1. they have set some of the VP machines to deal (or not deal) certain hands way more frequently than normal......Whatever you think about rigging, and VP fairness, and gaming regs and licensing anc commissions, something is happening in AC that clearly does NOT happen in Nevada and may not happend in other markets as well.

2.This thread was about PAYTABLES not mattering WHEN a VP machine decides to deal nothing but crappola for hands, which is technically a true statement, as I have experienced for the past 6-7 months in AC.  This really has been what all my griping is about, the DEAD hand rate that I have seen, witnessed and even tracked during my play in AC.
 
3.  I have stated MANY times before, and will state it again here, that I have personally witnessed and recorded, an overall "DEAD" hand rate of over 76% (76.75%) in all the play I have tracked in AC since around last November.   Let that sink in...76%  and I am talking about not just myself but other players I know personally and have seen play as well. 
 
4.
Not confusing anything.....it is as simple as it is frustrating,   basically, 75 out of 100 hands played on various 25 cent VP games in various AC Casinos results in NO RETURN (or "no value"  "Nothing"  "No Money")  
 
5. The issue here is DEAD hands, and it doesnt matter what the paytables are, how many lines, etc.  if the machine is just spitting out crap after crap, it ends there, everything else is moot. 
 
I find that much of what he says is true.  He's telling you his experiences and observations.  You guys with the numbers and statistics drive me nuts.  Everything isn't all numbers and statistics and paytables.  There are other factors going on here.  I started this thread and I'll say it again.  Paytables mean nothing!  In AC, the casino can tighten or loosen the VP machines.  They can go down to a lower limit (which most of them probably are due to the casinos in dire financal straits) and when they do that, the machines are dead.   The machines are not technically rigged because its my understanding they they can lawfully tighten up the machines to a certain extent.  I'm in ac 4 days a week and I have the opportunity to observe before I play.  I currently play certain 8/5 machines because they pay out better (more winning hands) than the 9/6 machines.  And I'm talking long term play.  So much for statistics and paytables (In AC anyway).   The key is to find out which machines are loose vs which are tight.  Not easy to do of course but I have done that and its helped me.  Its not the Paytable thats important, its finding out which machines are set looser by the casino.   

[EDC1977]

 Perhaps there is some different language in the NJ gaming regs but as far as I know, they cannot "loosen" or "tighten" hit percentage as this directly affects payback % as defined by the paytable. Even a 6/5 game will return over 76% but over it's lifetime. I've experienced severe droughts as well as better than good visits however, I haven't played in AC so I cannot speak by experience about NJ gaming. Perhaps you should e-mail the AGA about this.

[onemoretry]

I'm new on here and don't know any of you guys but I don't understand why many of you seem to come down hard on DaBurglar.  He's only giving you what he experiences and observes in AC.  I find most of what he says to be reasonable
 
 The problem some of us (at least me) have, is that, based on some of his comments, he has highly unrealistic (and therefore unfulfilled) expectations.  Accordingly, some of his conclusions amd implications are not, in my view, reasonable at all. For example, he got his shorts twisted into a huge knot because a group of 15 players did not, in around three hours of play, get a royal.  Well, c'mon!  The total number of hands played would have been in the order of 20000-25000.  So what's so remarkable about there being no royals?  It's more than 50% likely! Or, in another tirade, he went on about a 60 hand experiment, where he was not dealt at least a full house or higher.  Well, big deal!  The probability of not getting dealt one of those premium hands in 60 attempts exceeds 90%!  And yet he rants on about it. I have no doubt that he is having a bad time of it.  All of us who have played this game for any length of time at all have gone through dry spells, some of them quite extended.  You just have to learn to live with the dry spells, or find another hobby.     

[Vman96]

 Perhaps there is some different language in the NJ gaming regs but as far as I know, they cannot "loosen" or "tighten" hit percentage as this directly affects payback % as defined by the paytable.

Changing long term hit percentages is illegal as an implied consequence of how NJ law is written. But it's not as crystal clear as many other states, or other documents in the casino industry.

Here is a much clearer example from Gaming Laboratories International Standard 11: "Unless otherwise denoted on the payglass, where the gaming device plays a game that is recognizable to be a simulation of a live casino game such as Poker, Blackjack, Roulette, etc., the same probabilities associated with the live game shall be evident in the simulated game."

IGT, the company that produces 90%+ of the video poker machines in AC and throughout the country, strictly adheres to GLI 11.

http://www.gaminglabs.com/downloads/GLI ... 20v2.1.pdf

[FloridaPhil]

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.  Albert Einstein
 

[DaBurglar]

  DaBurglar did I ever state anywhere that I had disdain for your posts about AC? My position has always been the same: why do you continue to play in AC if you think it's rigged, crooked, or otherwise askewed? I don't have any contempt for you or your posts.
 
  I am having a hard time understanding why you claim such a high dead hand ratio when you are playing Deuces Wild? Who knows, maybe your recordkeeping is accurate and we are all wrong.
 
  As for whatever physical limitations you face in your life I can guarantee that you are not alone here my friend and those faced with same, or similar, challenges, take whatever steps they feel are necessary to get them through.
 
  I am wondering why you are always so defensive when other forum members ask you to back up your numbers or stats.
 This topic is wayyy off kilter now, people are starting to draw ridiculous conclusions. I never said I was playing Deuces Wild, I mentioned that they have it and what the paytables are in answering quad deuces' questions.   I played a LITTLE deuces during this last session, but my 76% dead hand figure stretches back 6 months and across a variety of games (DW accounts for 10% of total play over 6 months) And I only mention my "physical limitations" to give all you guys a clue as to WHY I go to AC instead of Vegas, ok?   I am not trying to inspire anyone here or feel sorry for myself or solicit money for any charity lol    ok?????   geez  And for the LAST TIME,  if you have read my posts in the past I always talk about my stats and record keeping and I have shared the details with you people (and when I do that I get a whole slew of other barbs and flak, but thats ok, thats the point of forums like this.   )    But last weeks foray to AC did NOT include me writing down EVERY SINGLE HAND RESULT and other detailed info like I normally do, and I said that wayyyyy back early on!   Instead this past week I only kept track of total hands, total busts, and money played/lost.    Got that?!?!?

[DaBurglar]

    The problem some of us (at least me) have, is that, based on some of his comments, he has highly unrealistic (and therefore unfulfilled) expectations.  Accordingly, some of his conclusions amd implications are not, in my view, reasonable at all. For example, he got his shorts twisted into a huge knot because a group of 15 players did not, in around three hours of play, get a royal.  Well, c'mon!  The total number of hands played would have been in the order of 20000-25000.  So what's so remarkable about there being no royals?  It's more than 50% likely! My shorts were in a twist long before I watched fhese players for 3 hours.   I have been griping about AC's dead VP for a while now, and my overall GRIPE stretches back 6 months to when this period of complete futility started.  I only mentioned watching these players as yet ONE MORE example of the GRIPE I have been .....er, GRIPING about.   But I have done this alot, watched others, and I base my conclusions not only on my futility but what I see others experiencing too.  [quote] Or, in another tirade, he went on about a 60 hand experiment, where he was not dealt at least a full house or higher.  Well, big deal!  The probability of not getting dealt one of those premium hands in 60 attempts exceeds 90%!  And yet he rants on about it. [/QUOTE] Tirade?  Rant?   c'mon,  this was just a little point i made INSIDE of my Tirade/Rant.   Get it straight would ya?  and dont exagerate..... But my point was, I went to sixty different machines, played one quick hand on each and wrote the result down.   All 60 dealt essentially the same crap, no difference at all.   By itself, this means NOTHING (and I said as much back when I made this point, or did you just choose to ignore that so you could GRIPE about my griping?)    Instead, this little observation/experiment FITS into my overall point as just one more small piece of evidence to back up the TREND that I have observed.    Do ya Get that????  

[sam434343]

Daburglar, I have read alot of your post and i understand what saying because you do back it up with your own records of your play over a longterm and some short term play, also threw some of people you know and others you watch play who you might not know as well.(lol) and you have talk with these people. Now there are some other people(tshock) getting some of the same results as you, now the expert on this site could 100%right and randomness is going on and your in a dry spell so to speak, but what if what you are saying about the machines in AC and something is amiss, some are telling dont go and play there any more(if you think there rigged, and i  know you said there not rigged but something going on)  and again if there is something going on maybe you will be part of the key to finding this out? You know why because all the expert dont believe in rigged/ or anything else that amiss. You know why because then you prove them wrong and experts are never wrong,even when you prove them wrong.LOL!LOL! Sometimes it is lonely at the top! Sam