Actual Machine Payout

[jm002546]

 Given a 100% VP machine in Las Vegas, I wonder what the actual payoutwould average? 95%? 90%?

[Eduardo]

Good question.  I'm sure some people play much worse than perfect.

[shadowman]

I've heard some discussion on this question in the past. Depending on the game it can vary quite a bit. Some games, like jacks or Better, end up closer to the expected return than other games with more difficult strategies. In addition, good players may dominate the play on certain machines and push the return up close to 100%. However, I think just about all the machines return less than 100%.
 
The return of the Beta games can probably provide additional insight. I suspect the newer the game the lower the return until the strategy becomes understood better.

[jm002546]

 It's an interesting question.  Casinos have put so many in that one wonders.They may be more profitable than regular slots. 

[MikeA]

 It's an interesting question.  Casinos have put so many in that one wonders.They may be more profitable than regular slots. 
Profitable to the Casino?  Probably.  Personally, I can say that I've seen very few people playing DB and DDB who were playing close to perfectly.  Most use a strategy very close to JOB but I've seen a lot of errors made even on JOB.I think it is the mentality of the casino managers that keeps the paytables on the VP machines below 100%.  It's like watering down the rules at Blackjack tables.  They are paranoid that some ONE person is going to kill them so they screw everyone knowing that most of the players don't even know how to read the paytables.  Similarly, most people who play Blackjack have no clue as to any of the impact different rules have on the game, much less know and apply Basic Strategy perfectly.I once made a side bet with a loudmouthed know-it-all at a Blackjack table.  He was the "big money" at the table and I was on third base.  When I hit a soft-18 with the Dealer showing a Face Card, this guy went ballistic!  The first few comments, I ignored, but got fed up with it when he said that no Basic Strategy card ever printed told the player to hit a soft-18.  I bet him $25 he was wrong and he took me up on it.  I gave the cocktail waitress $5 and asked her to go get me a strategy card from the gift shop.  She did, I toked her an additional $2 and without looking at the card, handed it to the loudmouth.  He paid up on the bet and stormed away from the table muttering something about how Basic strategy was BS or something like that.The point is that even though machines (or table games) can be played to 100% return or very close to it if played perfectly, very VERY few people take the time to learn more than the common plays and that leaves them sometimes better off if they would play slots!

[faygo]

More than once, when I have been playing I have had people sit down next to me and play. It, in a few hands, is obvious they don't have a clue. My guess is they play in the 60%-70% range. Of course they could get lucky and have great hands in spite of themselves. I have read that even a good player can because of distractions, momentary amnesia  and not seeing the small pair
lurking in the hand cost themselves anywhere form  .2% - 1.% in EV.
The Slot Machine comparison jm brought up is probably very valid and the person Casinos are going after with Guaranteed Play.

[TEXACO]

  AS OTHERS HAVE POSTED YOU DON'T HAVE TO LOOK VERY HARD TO FIND PEOPLE THAT HAVE NO IDEA ABOUT HOW TO PLAY EVEN BASIC J.O.B. AT ANYTHING CLOSE TO CORRECT STRATEGY. ALL YOU HAVE TO DO EVEN IN CASUAL TALK IS BRING UP MR. DANCER OR MRS. SCOTT  OR V.P.F.W. AND THEY WILL GIVE YOU A BLANK STARE OR SAY "YA" I SAW THEM ON TV BUT REALLY DIDN'T PAY THAT MUCH ATTENTION.
  EARLY THIS YEAR I WATCHED A LADY PLAYING 5-PLAY S.T.P. AT MAX BET OF "30" ON A 25-CENT MACHINE THAT WAS DEALT ON THE BOTTOM HAND
5,5,5,9,J AND SHE ONLY HELD THE JACK. SHE ONLY GOT 2 WINNING HANDS AND WHEN I ASKED HER WHY SHE HELD THE JACK ONLY, {HER WORDS NOT MINE -- HER FRIEND TOLD HER TO HOLD ONLY THE JACK OR BETTER FACE CARD'S}
  SO THE COMMENT ABOUT WHAT THE ACTUAL PAY BACK IS ON VIDEO POKER IS PROBABLY CLOSER THAN YOU THINK TO SLOT'S IS POBABLY TRUE.

[MikeA]

Sitting next to a lady in an Oklahoma casino, I was flabbergasted.  She was playing close to if not over 1000 hands per hour on a quarter machine at max bet with DDB.She never held for a straight or flush.  She only held pairs and face cards.  I asked her about it and she just said that the only way to beat this game was to hit quads.  She wouldn't hold 4 to a flush because she seldom hit and had better return holding just a face out of the hand and hoping for a push and another hand!Actually, she didn't do that badly.  She came out ahead after playing for a couple of hours, but it's sad to think that she would have probably even done better had she held for those "sustaining" hands...flushes and straights.

[pokeherguy]

Sitting next to a lady in an Oklahoma casino, I was flabbergasted.  She was playing close to if not over 1000 hands per hour on a quarter machine at max bet with DDB.

She never held for a straight or flush.  She only held pairs and face cards.  I asked her about it and she just said that the only way to beat this game was to hit quads.  She wouldn't hold 4 to a flush because she seldom hit and had better return holding just a face out of the hand and hoping for a push and another hand!

Actually, she didn't do that badly.  She came out ahead after playing for a couple of hours, but it's sad to think that she would have probably even done better had she held for those "sustaining" hands...flushes and straights.

I seen a lady doing the same exact thing. I didn't want her to know I was watching so I sat at a poker machine behind her. I don't like it much when I know I'm being watched. It took me a while before I figured out what she was doing.

[cddenver]

ALL YOU HAVE TO DO EVEN IN CASUAL TALK IS BRING UP MR. DANCER OR MRS. SCOTT  OR V.P.F.W. AND THEY WILL GIVE YOU A BLANK STARE OR SAY "YA" I SAW THEM ON TV BUT REALLY DIDN'T PAY THAT MUCH ATTENTION.
 
I don't think it's necessary to know the names "Dancer", "Scott", or VPFW to understand the games and how to play well.  I know several players who don't have access to the Net, or who don't use it to get info on VP.  There are some good books out there with good info on what to play and how to play.  That being said, I'd certainly agree that the more sources of info you have the better off you'll be, even if you decide some of it isn't for you.