VP vs BJ

[MikeA]

Several times, we have encountered questions here on the forum about the advisability of choosing Video Poker over Blackjack or maybe the advisability of learning both games.To that end, I have put together a little "presentation" on my website that points out the steps needed in becoming proficient in both games.  No, I didn't get into detailed "strategy" on either game, but did go a bit into "card-counting" in blackjack for those who are not familiar with what that really entails.  You can check it out at HERE or cut and paste the following link.http://mvabercrombie.net/Casino%20Games ... P.htmlNote also that you can get to that site "indirectly" by clicking on my WWW button found in my profile.  The hyperlink is pretty obvious on that page to get to that site.

[rfonlymama]

thanks MikeA!   I'm anxious to check out your site! 

I think I'll stick with VP as sometimes people in BJ games are just ornery!

[MikeA]

Yeah, that's definitely a factor!  Be sure and read the topic I labeled "Recollections of a Blackjack Player!"  To each his own though.  Some like the solitude of playing a VP machine.  Others like that interaction and socialization found at the Blackjack tables.

[jm002546]

  Thanks for your work on the site.  Two questions: "preferred" method of sighting dealers hole card-deal,flop or peek? And would I hope to have ended on first, not, or third?  And what etiquette do you employ as an observer of BJ? Have you ever been asked to scram by one of the players? dealer?

[MikeA]

  Thanks for your work on the site.  Two questions: "preferred" method of sighting dealers hole card-deal,flop or peek? And would I hope to have ended on first, not, or third?  And what etiquette do you employ as an observer of BJ? Have you ever been asked to scram by one of the players? dealer?
To your first question JM:It all depends on the dealer.  You very likely will not get a "peek" when the dealer checks for blackjack.  They are well trained to cover the cards very carefully when they lift up the edge to check.  However, you MIGHT get a "tell" if you played against that dealer before.  One thing that can give away a "4" under the face card is when the dealer lifts the card, looks, and then pauses and looks again.  The top of the four looks like an Ace and the dealer has to lift the cards higher to see if it is an Ace or a Four.The other precaution casinos have taken to prevent players seeing the down card when the dealer checks for a blackjack is the "mirrored" or "electronic" "peeper".  Not even the dealer knows what the hole card is unless it is a Blackjack.  Since they slide the cards under the peepers guides, they never lift them off the felt.As for the true "hole carding" or "first basing", it all depends on how high the dealer holds the hand dealt deck, how he flips his card to make it an "up-card" and how he pitches the cards.  Similar constraints apply to shoe games as well as far and how they flip the up-card.  Many times, they will take one of the two down cards and flip the other to make it the up-card.  When they do this, they sometimes get careless and "show" enough of the held card to determine if it is a face or spotted card.But whichever is the case, it depends on the angle the dealer holds the cards that would determine whether it would be better to sit at first or third.I know of a guy who though barred and trespassed from virtually every casino in Las Vegas, disguised himself as a MS patient in a wheelchair.  He had the act down pat.  Shaky, drooling, jerky, unable to talk, thick glasses, the whole bit and he played it to the tilt!  So well did he play it that there was nothing but compassion when he leaned forward and rested his head on the padded armrests on the high table he parked at!  Of course, with his head in that position, he was able to catch the hole card on almost every deal!Me "asked to leave?"  LOL.  Yeah, a couple of times in fact!  Once I was watching a game in the High Limit Room at AmeriStar in KC.  After I'd been there 10 or 15 minutes, I was first asked by the Pit Boss if he could help me find a table and when I declined, he asked me to leave.  Apparently some of the high rollers there got nervous with people watching them handle large stacks of high denomination chips.I was asked to leave the table at Las Vegas Club on Fremont.  I wasn't even counting.  I was just making flat $5 bets on every hand.  The problem was that though I'd cleared with the Pit Boss ahead of time that I would be helping my son and son-in-law make play decisions, I hadn't cleared my helping the drunk sitting next to me and his girlfriend!  They were horrible and when they started asking me for help and I gave it to them, they started winning.  And they were betting Black Chips!  The PB did asked me to leave the table but came with me when I backed off.  He explained it to me and told me I was welcome to come back and help my son as much as I wished, but that they couldn't allow me to help someone they were making a killing off of!I have been "flat betted" several times.  I have been "backed off" for suspected (yeah, right!  Me? <evil grin>) card counting a couple of Las Vegas Casinos.At a casino in Oklahoma, I wasn't "backed off" but I did have the Pit Boss and one of the Dealers (a dealer I taught how to play the game before she became a dealer!) ask me to teach them to count cards.And then, at AmeriStar, I had a Pit Boss tell me in front of a dealer and a table full of players that I could count their 6-deck table all I wanted to if I thought I could.  They were both solidly of the opinion that it is impossible to count a 6-deck shoe!  I blessed them and raised my spread <LOL>

[EDC1977]

 Mike, I thought that was the whole idea behind the multi-deck shoe was to make it that much more difficult for counters to find a plus betting time in each shoe? I've seen them re-shuffle when theres still about 2-3 decks worth of cards left so is it worth the time? Is that done deliberately to throw off the counters?

[pokeherguy]

The title of this post kinda caught me off guard at first because I'm not a blackjack player.

[MikeA]

 Mike, I thought that was the whole idea behind the multi-deck shoe was to make it that much more difficult for counters to find a plus betting time in each shoe? I've seen them re-shuffle when theres still about 2-3 decks worth of cards left so is it worth the time? Is that done deliberately to throw off the counters?First off....GOTCHA POKHERGUY!You are partially correct Ed.  The casinos initially went to multideck to throw off card counters by making it more difficult.  That really isn't true because a 6-deck shoe isn't harder to count than a Single deck...it just takes longer.  But having multiple decks doesn't change the card rank ratios.  Relatively speaking, there is still the same ratio of high cards to low cards.  That is where Blackjack differs from VP.  In VP every hand is an "independent trial".  In Blackjack, a card in play is removed from the deck and that does have an impact on what is available to be drawn in later hands and the probability can to an extent be predicted.So much boils down to Penetration...how many cards is the dealer removing from play in the "shoe" whether it's Single Deck, Double Deck or 6-deck?  In each of those situations, the "thermometer" (card count) always starts out at ZERO and if you are using a Balanced Count, will end up back at ZERO when the last card is dealt out of the shoe if all cards are dealt from the complete deck.  With Multideck, there can be larger loosing periods and longer winning periods but in essence, they average out.  In Double Deck and Single Deck, the same thing happens but the peaks and valleys in a "shoe" happen more quickly and shuffles happen more quickly which starts you over at Zero again for a count.So multideck doesn't make it more difficult to find positive conditions, it just may take longer and when they happen, they are likely to last longer.  That's why you sometimes see a player at a BlackJack table sit out hands or stand up and have the dealer save his spot...yet he hangs around that table and continues to count and doesn't sit back down and play until the count gets positive again.  That's called WONGING.  A gentleman whose psuedoname is Stanford Wong "invented' that method and wrote about it in one of the earlier books on blackjack advantage play.  (There's not an Asian drop of blood in his body by the way.  I've met him and he's a very nice guy!)That's the kicker though.  When the dealer cuts off a part of the deck, those cards behind the cut card are not played.  That's why Penetration is so important to a card counter.  But card counting is still worth playing on Single Deck if the dealer cuts off no more than 50% of the deck.  For Double Deck the minimum that most counters will battle is a 60% pen (dealer cuts off 40%).  For the multideck shoes, most counters will not play if there is less than 75% pen. 

[jm002546]

 Since you're in the explaining mode, what is the "deal" with the six deck shuffling procedure? The dealer goes through a long ritual that seems to take forever. It seems they would want to be playing more hands with a faster shuffle, say mechanical.

[EDC1977]

 Mike, I've seen that S.Wong guy walking around the table games with casual business clothes and a straw hat like a rice picker wears.(strange attire!) I remember seeing a program on card counting(cheating in casinos)with Stanford and Anthony Curtis. Once mastered, they show how advantageous it can be when count goes positive.