Single line or Multi-Line?

[clwn2]

Just curious of how these two options compare with our crowd.  You all seem to be informed and experienced so I'd like your opinions and experiences with each..  I have always favored single line games, mainly due to the fact that bankroll lasts much longer when compared to multi-line games. Quarter triple play is out of my reach bankroll wise and nickel schedules are not the best but it seems that I am missing some action here as well...
 
Again, any thoughts appreciated...
 

[MikeA]

As far as I know with the games themselves, ER remains the same whether playing 100-line or Single-line as long as the pay tables are equal.I can think of one case where you might consider multiline and even it is 'suspect' in my own mind.  If you are playing for comps, you'll cycle more coin-in with multiline, but then you could opt to play for higher denomination single line and accomplish the same coin in (within reason of course).But as for ER, I don't think it matters.  SM, can you comment on the variance.  It seems I recall that variance can change between single and multiline.  That would be a factor for ME personally.  I'm over-conscience about variance...rather ANAL about it.

[shadowman]

If you play the same denom on multi-line as on single line the variance goes up on multi-line. If you bet the same amount per spin, the variance is less on multi-line (e.g. $5 single line vs. 5-play dollars).
 
I play both types of games. If the ER is around the same I will usually go for multi-line quarters rather than single line dollars. However, a difference of .2 or .3 is enough to move to the single line.
 
Here's a couple of examples: I play a 5-play 99.69 ER game rather than a a single line 99.72 ER. However, I play a single line 99.46 ER game over a 5-play 99.17 ER game. In all the cases CB and BB make the games return over 101%. 

[rfonlymama]

I wondered about that the other day when I saw someone playing 100 play pennies for $5 and wondered why they weren't playing $1 single play - the pay tables were the same.  I suppose with the RNG that they could have the same odds of winning in either format but the 100 play allows them the opportunity to get some money back on each hand.

[clwn2]

Thanks everyone for the feedback.  I have always avoided multi-liners
due to bankroll.  I am pretty narrow minded sometimes. I want to branch out to other games..  It helps me to understand the thinking that goes behind the preferences... The level I am at right now kind of sucks because of the schedules for nickels in my vicinity.  It seems to me that I would have a better chance to hit more royals if I played mutli-line machines. 
 
In my case, the percentages are the same except a very few machines I have found that are 8/5DDB.   There is mostly 7/5DDB bonus in nickels and dimes in the ten coin and triple and five-play varieties.  The ones I want to hit the hardest have progressives for the royal on each line.  I know that this adds to the value of the game but I am not sure how much.  I will check to see if VPFW can calculate this.  If there is an easy way to do this on a calculator please someone chime in.  I have done without this calculation in the past, mainly because there was no reason to since all the machines have the same schedule.  It is a no brainer to change over to a better schedule if one becomes available.     
 
One more Q: Does ER stands for "Expected Return?  That is the same as payback percentage isn't it?  Thats what I have assumed in the past.  Please correct me if I am wrong

[shadowman]

One more Q: Does ER stands for "Expected Return?  That is the same as payback percentage isn't it?  Thats what I have assumed in the past.  Please correct me if I am wrong
 
You are correct.

[New2vp]

Since a Royal Flush paying 4000 credits in 52-card non-wild games contributes about 2% to the value of a game, you can figure that each additional 200 credits will contribute about 0.1% (2% / 4000 x 200 = 0.1%).  This will occur without making any strategy changes to try to increase your chance at a larger-than-normal royal payoff.  Using this rule-of-thumb, a Royal Flush payoff that has reached 4500 credits will add about 0.25% to the Expected Value of the game.
 
According to what I have read, video poker parlance has adopted the convention that Expected Value is the weighted average payoff of a game or a play per the amount bet and thus can often be expressed as a percentage.  For example, 9/6 Jacks or Better (JOB) has an EV of 99.5439%.
 
Expected Return is the Expected Value multiplied by the amount bet.  So the ER of playing a single hand of 9/6 JOB is 4.977195 credits (5 x 0.995439), which you can turn into a dollar amount.  If you are playing for dollars, this is about $4.98, for quarters: about $1.25, and for nickels:  about $0.25.
 
You can also have EVs and ERs of individual plays.  If you are playing 5 credits per play, ER will be 5 x EV.  With the hand JJ765, holding the Jacks in 9/6 JOB gives an ER of 7.6827, while the EV is 1.5365.  From the EV, you can easily see what is commonly called the "edge."  Here, the player has a 53.65% edge.  In the game itself, the house as a 0.4561% edge (99.5439% - 100%).
 
Certainly, some people may choose not to use this convention, so it is best to try to determine from examples what a particular person means.
 
To me this is confusing terminology but this seems to be the video poker convention.  In finance, these terms are reversed, with ER being generally expressed as a percentage, but "when in Rome..."

[shadowman]

VPfree uses a little different defns for EV and ER. What you used for EV above is commonly used as ER on vpfree. Also,
 
EV   =   [ER]   X   [coin-in]

is the vpfree defn of EV. Where did you get your defn of EV that caused you to think it was common for VP?
 
BTW, I usually look at the context to determine which one is meant since I've been known to use them interchangeably at times.
 

[New2vp]

VPfree uses a little different defns for EV and ER. What you used for EV above is commonly used as ER on vpfree. Also,
 
EV   =   [ER]   X   [coin-in]

is the vpfree defn of EV. Where did you get your defn of EV that caused you to think it was common for VP?
 
BTW, I usually look at the context to determine which one is meant since I've been known to use them interchangeably at times.
 
Your BTW statement is definitely the best policy here.  I believe that I closed my discussion with a similar statement.  But this must be awfully confusing to a novice who is just trying to figure out the difference.  Academically, I would have believed that the vpFREE definition that you gave would have been correct.
 
But if you look at http://www.fairestcasinos.com/videopoke ... asp?id=420, you will see an article by Dan Paymar that he calls Glossary of Video Poker Terms.  (Webman, this is a link to an article, not a direct link to online gaming/gambling).
 
I quote Paymar:
 
"Expected Return: The average amount of money payed back on a particular play for a particular bet. The Expected Return (ER) is the Expected Value of a play multiplied by the amount bet. Most commercially available video poker analysis programs, when analyzing a hand, give the ER of each possible play. The program may call those numbers Expected Values, but any qualified statistician will confirm that as a misnomer [emphasis added*] (see next definition).
 
Expected Value: The statistically projected average per-unit-bet payback of a particular play. Another way of looking at the EV is the average of all possible outcomes for a particular play or game. Most commercially available video poker analysis programs give the Expected Return (ER) of each possible play when a hand is analyzed. Assuming a five coin bet, dividing the ER by five will give the EV. A better technique, however, is to change the bet to one coin and adjust all one-coin payoffs to per-coin values so that the program will give EV directly. For more details, see my article 'What is Expected Value?'"
 
*I'm a statistician and I would disagree with Paymar's assertion, but he might then think that I'm not "qualified."  So here, I yield to Paymar's use (and not my education) since he is an accepted authority and I am not, especially when I see corroboration elsewhere in the VP world.
 
If you look at the Hand Analysis given by WinPoker, Frugal Video Poker (FVP), or Wolf Video Poker, you will see that they use Return as I suggested.  BVS Video Poker allows you to switch between EV and ER and they are as I suggested.  To make things more confusing, in its definitions, FVP uses the terms EV and ER interchangeably, which contradicts its own use in its Hand Analysis feature.  In Wolf VP, the definitions acknowledge that ER is sometimes used differently.
 
So, I think the evidence is tilted predominantly towards the way I stated although not the way that I would have decided had I been in charge.
 
Best advice:  Know both definitions and be wary of the author's use.

[shadowman]

Good advice.