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Is it wrong if I do this?
1)I always hold a deuce plus two more to a straight flush (e.g. deuce, 2 of clubs, & 3 of clubs)
2) I always hold two to a royal flush (e.g. Jack of hearts and 10 of hearts)
3) I never hold four cards to a regular straight.
Please tell me if these moves are unequivocally wrong or if there is a difference of opinion. Does anyone agree with my moves? or do I need some serious refinement in my tactics?
Deuces Wild
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shadowman
- Video Poker Master
- Posts: 3587
- Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:42 pm
As stated all 3 are wrong for most deuces wild games. However, you will need to specify the pay table in the game you play before anything can be stated as fact.
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damule
- VP Veteran
- Posts: 551
- Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2008 4:59 pm
I agree with shadow here as far as the statements were written, however;
Some quick strategies I could give you close to the 3 examples you stated are as follows in 16/10 and 15/9 pay tables:
1-Hold two to a straight flush that are consecutive cards or one gapped with 1 deuce starting at 5-7 and 6-7. Same holds true when dealt 2 deuces.
2-When dealt no deuces, no pairs, and not 4 to a flush, hold two to the royal flush ranked as follows: Q-J, K-Q, J-10, Q-10, K-J. Do not hold an Ace with any other card to the royal and do not hold K-10.
3-Hold 4 to an open ended straight beginning with 4-5-6-7. Do hold a pair over any straight draw. Do not ever hold 4 to a straight that a two would complete in a non-deuces wild game.
There are some exceptions to these strategies, such as penalty cards especially with the straight flush and royal flush holds, but this would be a good starting point for you to learn your basic strategies from.
PS: I also recommend you do some research on sites such as bobdancer.com, wizardofodds.com, and vpgenius.com.
Some quick strategies I could give you close to the 3 examples you stated are as follows in 16/10 and 15/9 pay tables:
1-Hold two to a straight flush that are consecutive cards or one gapped with 1 deuce starting at 5-7 and 6-7. Same holds true when dealt 2 deuces.
2-When dealt no deuces, no pairs, and not 4 to a flush, hold two to the royal flush ranked as follows: Q-J, K-Q, J-10, Q-10, K-J. Do not hold an Ace with any other card to the royal and do not hold K-10.
3-Hold 4 to an open ended straight beginning with 4-5-6-7. Do hold a pair over any straight draw. Do not ever hold 4 to a straight that a two would complete in a non-deuces wild game.
There are some exceptions to these strategies, such as penalty cards especially with the straight flush and royal flush holds, but this would be a good starting point for you to learn your basic strategies from.
PS: I also recommend you do some research on sites such as bobdancer.com, wizardofodds.com, and vpgenius.com.
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Lucky Larry
- Video Poker Master
- Posts: 2693
- Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 7:35 pm
Dynomite,
Shadowman and damule have given you excellent input. If you don't have software which allows you to practice the correct hands, practice here, on VPgenius, or we prefer freeslots.com since you can quickly adjust the pay tables to your local casino. Since strategy changes with the pay table especially on Deuces Wild we us freeslots to quickly adjust the pay tables to the casino. Just remember to change 2X to 1X for 5 coin play.
LL
Shadowman and damule have given you excellent input. If you don't have software which allows you to practice the correct hands, practice here, on VPgenius, or we prefer freeslots.com since you can quickly adjust the pay tables to your local casino. Since strategy changes with the pay table especially on Deuces Wild we us freeslots to quickly adjust the pay tables to the casino. Just remember to change 2X to 1X for 5 coin play.
LL
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Dynomite
- Forum Rookie
- Posts: 29
- Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:44 pm
Thanks, all you guys are very cool. Of course I am still not clear on this DW analysis. It actually seems Damule is partially agreeing with me. On no. 1, why would I not hold a deuce plus two more to a Str. Flush? A str. Flush is the 5th highest hand (Game King at Yonkers and Atlantic City) and I am 3 fifths there -- -- right? On no. 2, what's the reason not to hold a Jack and a 10 of the same suit? Shouldn't I be shooting for the Royal Flush, the best hand possible? On throwing down 4 cards to a regular straight I figured I was breaking a rule but I was always counseled to play the max and go for bust -- especially in a wild card game.
Guys, forgive my ignorance but is your analysis based on probabilities? I thought the computer chips in the machines were random. For example, does a 4567 have a better probability than 3456 to hit a straight? You guys are zillions of light years ahead of me but I play DW at the aforementioned casinos and I do fairly well. Is there room for disagreement on this stuff? or do you guys have all the probabilities calculated? Is there really a perfect way to play? THANK YOU FOR LETTING ME PICK YOUR SUPERIOR BRAINS.
Guys, forgive my ignorance but is your analysis based on probabilities? I thought the computer chips in the machines were random. For example, does a 4567 have a better probability than 3456 to hit a straight? You guys are zillions of light years ahead of me but I play DW at the aforementioned casinos and I do fairly well. Is there room for disagreement on this stuff? or do you guys have all the probabilities calculated? Is there really a perfect way to play? THANK YOU FOR LETTING ME PICK YOUR SUPERIOR BRAINS.
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Dynomite
- Forum Rookie
- Posts: 29
- Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:44 pm
Larry,
Please check out my follow up questions. I would love to read your response. Thanks
Please check out my follow up questions. I would love to read your response. Thanks
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damule
- VP Veteran
- Posts: 551
- Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2008 4:59 pm
Dyno,
I can't give you all the mathmatically and statistically exact answers to your questions. I'm gifted with the ability of quickly figuring probabilities, but I'm not a guy that can give you the formulas as to how to arrive to those probabilities. There are some guys on this site that can like shadowman and especially new2vp. Please research your answers from some video poker math gurus, especially on bobdancer.com and wizardofodds.com. You can look up all their archived stories and get the math behind your questions and answers.
On #2 I did tell you the correct hold is suited J-10. On #1 and #3 you never hold a straight or straight flush draw where the two (not a deuce) is needed to fill in for completion. You're reducing your chances of completing the straight by up to 50% by doing this. Also the idea, although the deals and draws are random is to give yourself the best chance of reaching the maximum expected return in the lifetime of the game. The only way to do this is to use as close to perfect strategy as you can.
Remember, we live to play another day if you play the game right today. If not, there will be no tomorrow as the bankroll will quickly go away.
I can't give you all the mathmatically and statistically exact answers to your questions. I'm gifted with the ability of quickly figuring probabilities, but I'm not a guy that can give you the formulas as to how to arrive to those probabilities. There are some guys on this site that can like shadowman and especially new2vp. Please research your answers from some video poker math gurus, especially on bobdancer.com and wizardofodds.com. You can look up all their archived stories and get the math behind your questions and answers.
On #2 I did tell you the correct hold is suited J-10. On #1 and #3 you never hold a straight or straight flush draw where the two (not a deuce) is needed to fill in for completion. You're reducing your chances of completing the straight by up to 50% by doing this. Also the idea, although the deals and draws are random is to give yourself the best chance of reaching the maximum expected return in the lifetime of the game. The only way to do this is to use as close to perfect strategy as you can.
Remember, we live to play another day if you play the game right today. If not, there will be no tomorrow as the bankroll will quickly go away.
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Dynomite
- Forum Rookie
- Posts: 29
- Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:44 pm
Mule,
Okay, l will stick with you because I understand you. Please tell me if I've got this right. Holding the Jack/hearts and 10/hearts for the potential Royal Flush is correct but holding K/hearts and 10/hearts is not good and the reason for this is that smart folks have figured out how these machines think and they've deduced the probabilities? (the confusing part for me is the discriminating nature of the computer chip. I incorrectly assumed that DW video poker was as random as playing with a 52 card deck at home)
In addition, it's okay to hold a deuce plus 5/hearts and 7/hearts for the potential St. flush but it's not okay to hold the deuce plus the 3/hearts and 4/hearts simply because in the second scenario the deuce is sometimes not wild at all (it's just a two) and your mathematical possibilities are naturally lowered. Am I right?
Finally, are there disagreements within the VP community (as it were) with any of these types of tactics? Or are you (and others) following straight empirical tried & true mathematically correct methods? Is a really good VP player, in a sense, a highly trained robot?
Thanks for letting my pick your brain. I owe you a beer bro!
Dynomite
Okay, l will stick with you because I understand you. Please tell me if I've got this right. Holding the Jack/hearts and 10/hearts for the potential Royal Flush is correct but holding K/hearts and 10/hearts is not good and the reason for this is that smart folks have figured out how these machines think and they've deduced the probabilities? (the confusing part for me is the discriminating nature of the computer chip. I incorrectly assumed that DW video poker was as random as playing with a 52 card deck at home)
In addition, it's okay to hold a deuce plus 5/hearts and 7/hearts for the potential St. flush but it's not okay to hold the deuce plus the 3/hearts and 4/hearts simply because in the second scenario the deuce is sometimes not wild at all (it's just a two) and your mathematical possibilities are naturally lowered. Am I right?
Finally, are there disagreements within the VP community (as it were) with any of these types of tactics? Or are you (and others) following straight empirical tried & true mathematically correct methods? Is a really good VP player, in a sense, a highly trained robot?
Thanks for letting my pick your brain. I owe you a beer bro!
Dynomite
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royal flush
- Video Poker Master
- Posts: 1117
- Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:50 pm
its because less straight draws on fpdw deuce 5,7, of hearts is not correct
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damule
- VP Veteran
- Posts: 551
- Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2008 4:59 pm
Mule,
Okay, l will stick with you because I understand you. Please tell me if I've got this right. Holding the Jack/hearts and 10/hearts for the potential Royal Flush is correct but holding K/hearts and 10/hearts is not good and the reason for this is that smart folks have figured out how these machines think and they've deduced the probabilities? (the confusing part for me is the discriminating nature of the computer chip. I incorrectly assumed that DW video poker was as random as playing with a 52 card deck at home)
In addition, it's okay to hold a deuce plus 5/hearts and 7/hearts for the potential St. flush but it's not okay to hold the deuce plus the 3/hearts and 4/hearts simply because in the second scenario the deuce is sometimes not wild at all (it's just a two) and your mathematical possibilities are naturally lowered. Am I right?
Finally, are there disagreements within the VP community (as it were) with any of these types of tactics? Or are you (and others) following straight empirical tried & true mathematically correct methods? Is a really good VP player, in a sense, a highly trained robot?
Thanks for letting my pick your brain. I owe you a beer bro!
Dynomite
Dyno,
First you don't owe me anything, plus I don't drink... I need all my brain cells. I don't mind sharing my knowledge and experience with other players. Not everything I tell others is always "by the book" correct, but I'll let you know there is some difference of opinions.
As far as why it's correct to hold suited J-10 and not suited K-10 is because you're playing for the overall expected return of the draw, not just the royal flush. With both holds the flush, royal flush, and various other draws are equally in play. However, with J-10 you have a much greater chance of of also drawing a straight or a straight flush when compared to K-10. A hold of J-10 can complete straights and straight flushes from 7-A where K-10 can only do this from 9-A. Those 2 extra steps in the deck change the math to the point where it is correct to hold J-10 and not K-10 due to the statistical overall return. This is the same reason why you never hold and Ace with any other high suited card in deuces wild. The other point is with J-10, K-Q, Q-10, and K-J holds you only have to fill in 1 gap or no gaps versus K-10 where you must fill in 2 gaps with is much more difficult to achieve; sort of like an open ended straight draw versus an inside straight draw.
You can use the above information and apply it to the 2 cards to the straight flush draw with 1 or 2 deuces. The only difference is you lessen your expected return at the lower value end of the deck versus the higher value end. Where with K-10 or A-(10 thru K) suited holds you're running out of cards for straights, the same holds true when a two (not a deuce) is needed to complete a straight or a straight flush.
And dyno, again if you haven't checked out any of the suggested website please do so. I have gained a wealth of knowledge over the years just by reading what the "true" mathmatically experts have had to say.
Okay, l will stick with you because I understand you. Please tell me if I've got this right. Holding the Jack/hearts and 10/hearts for the potential Royal Flush is correct but holding K/hearts and 10/hearts is not good and the reason for this is that smart folks have figured out how these machines think and they've deduced the probabilities? (the confusing part for me is the discriminating nature of the computer chip. I incorrectly assumed that DW video poker was as random as playing with a 52 card deck at home)
In addition, it's okay to hold a deuce plus 5/hearts and 7/hearts for the potential St. flush but it's not okay to hold the deuce plus the 3/hearts and 4/hearts simply because in the second scenario the deuce is sometimes not wild at all (it's just a two) and your mathematical possibilities are naturally lowered. Am I right?
Finally, are there disagreements within the VP community (as it were) with any of these types of tactics? Or are you (and others) following straight empirical tried & true mathematically correct methods? Is a really good VP player, in a sense, a highly trained robot?
Thanks for letting my pick your brain. I owe you a beer bro!
Dynomite
Dyno,
First you don't owe me anything, plus I don't drink... I need all my brain cells. I don't mind sharing my knowledge and experience with other players. Not everything I tell others is always "by the book" correct, but I'll let you know there is some difference of opinions.
As far as why it's correct to hold suited J-10 and not suited K-10 is because you're playing for the overall expected return of the draw, not just the royal flush. With both holds the flush, royal flush, and various other draws are equally in play. However, with J-10 you have a much greater chance of of also drawing a straight or a straight flush when compared to K-10. A hold of J-10 can complete straights and straight flushes from 7-A where K-10 can only do this from 9-A. Those 2 extra steps in the deck change the math to the point where it is correct to hold J-10 and not K-10 due to the statistical overall return. This is the same reason why you never hold and Ace with any other high suited card in deuces wild. The other point is with J-10, K-Q, Q-10, and K-J holds you only have to fill in 1 gap or no gaps versus K-10 where you must fill in 2 gaps with is much more difficult to achieve; sort of like an open ended straight draw versus an inside straight draw.
You can use the above information and apply it to the 2 cards to the straight flush draw with 1 or 2 deuces. The only difference is you lessen your expected return at the lower value end of the deck versus the higher value end. Where with K-10 or A-(10 thru K) suited holds you're running out of cards for straights, the same holds true when a two (not a deuce) is needed to complete a straight or a straight flush.
And dyno, again if you haven't checked out any of the suggested website please do so. I have gained a wealth of knowledge over the years just by reading what the "true" mathmatically experts have had to say.
