Help-10/7 Question!

[Mr Double B]

Using Bob Dancers WinPoker::
 
If you hold 3H-5H-7H-6D-Jc  correct strategy says to hold J
If you hold 3H-5H-7H-6D-Qc correct strategy says to hold 3H-5H-7H 
 
What gives--why does it make a difference to hold J vs Q..

[New2vp]

You can find the answer yourself by clicking on Analyze, then on Any Hand and looking at the statistics.The singleton J can make 4 types of straights, AKQJT, KQJT9, QJT98, and JT987, while the Q can make only the first 3 types of straights.  Thus a J is more valuable than a Q.  The 753 is worth the same in both cases, worth less than the J, but more than the Q.  (A King is worth less than both since it can only make 2 straights.  The Ace is worth more not because it can make more straights but because
quad aces pay so much more.)That happens in most games that pay anything for Jacks or Better.    It just so happens in this game to make a difference on the hand that you described.

[shadowman]

Excellent summary. Also, the big reason you even consider the 753 is because the flush pay 7 coins instead of 6 or 5 for other bonus games.

[Mr Double B]

Excellent explanation! Thanks.
 
Now for test #2.
 
Holding 3h-5h-7h-6d-Jc correct hold is Jc
Holding 3h-5h-7h-6c-Jc correct hold is 3-5-7
 
Why the difference?
 
Even with your help on the other hold I don't have a clue as to why the difference in the above hold. I see the difference in return but don't understand why there is a difference. 

[shadowman]

Try new2vp's suggestion and analyze the hand. Check out the number of flushes when holding the Jc in both cases.

[Mr Double B]

I'm sorry--I don't get it! If I hold Jc I have 491 flushes--if I hold Jc & 6c I have of 326 flushes. It seems to me if I want a club flush I'm better to start with 2 clubs and not 1.

[shadowman]

But, you don't get any straights/SFs/RFs if you hold the 6c along with the Jc. That's one reason why the J6 combination shows a lower overall return.
 
You need to compare the Jc alone in both situations. One with the 6c and one with the 6d. The key is by throwing away the 6c you reduce the number of possible flushes. Throwing away the 6d does not have the same impact.

[New2vp]

Shadowman's assessment is spot on.  If you are still having trouble with your understanding, maybe the following will help....but there are no guarantees.Some games have combinations of cards that are held most of the time except for a few exceptions.  And then sometimes there are exceptions to the exceptions.  Some players like to figure all of them out (WinPoker is an excellent tool to do tinkering since Hand Analysis allows you to right click on the cards to change their ranks and suits; Wolf Video Poker and VPFW list all the exceptions for you; Wolf generally tell you the logic behind the exceptions).   Many players would rather come up with simpler rules to follow that are not quite perfect.Although I tend to like to figure out every last exception in a game, everyone has to decide for themselves which rules are worth committing to memory (or paper) and which are not.  Even "expert writers" on vp differ as to the best way to do this.  Some of the exception lists make some people's heads explode; if you are a bit more analytical you may want work on the exceptions the way you are and try to figure out why different holds have different values depending on the cards in a hand that you are discarding.