Deuces Bonus Question...

[kjohn]

I'm trying to improve my deuces game and have been playing the training mode...I've learned a lot but still missing some plays and only hitting about 94% So my question is:

Why is it right to hold the JK, JQ, J10,K10,KQ but WRONG to hold the AQ, AK, AJ.. I held an AJ and got a natural royal..This just doesn't seem logical to me...Also I noticed the training mode goes for some SFlushes and not others...I held a 2 34suited and it was wrong, but some others were correct...Can someone give me the reason for these plays..Once I can see the logic in a play I can stick to it...Any help would be appreciated as I have to play a lot of hands to get to the ones that are giving me trouble...

[damule]

 I'll try to answer to the best of my ability. Deuces wild is a very complicated game when it comes to some holds. And the ones you've mentioned are some of the more complicated along with penalty card situations.
 
 You sort of answered the question yourself when you mentioned straight flushes. In deuces wild, you do not hold any 3 card straight flush that the deuce would be part of naturally.
 
 Also, when holding two to the royal, you do not "dead end" yourself with an ace. It is important to keep the straight flush alive as well as the royal flush. This is where the math of the game weighs in. It is statistically advantageous to hold nothing versus the ace holds you mentioned.
 
 The last item is the suited K-10 or "2-gap" hold. I believe in most deuces wild games that suited K-10 should be discarded in lieu of holding no cards.

[Lucky Larry]

I'm trying to improve my deuces game and have been playing the training mode...I've learned a lot but still missing some plays and only hitting about 94% So my question is:

Why is it right to hold the JK, JQ, J10,K10,KQ but WRONG to hold the AQ, AK, AJ.. I held an AJ and got a natural royal..This just doesn't seem logical to me...Also I noticed the training mode goes for some SFlushes and not others...I held a 2 34suited and it was wrong, but some others were correct...Can someone give me the reason for these plays..Once I can see the logic in a play I can stick to it...Any help would be appreciated as I have to play a lot of hands to get to the ones that are giving me trouble...

kjohn,
As I understand it partly deals with the option for straights not just RF. An AK doesn't provide the same opportunity for straights versus say JK or JQ. There is no card that comes before the Ace in a straight so you have limited the possible % of straights. Just in case you don't hit the RF. Similar to the rationale below.

The StrFlush options goes back to the fact that you don't want to limit the deuce's use in possible StrFlush options. A 3-4+2 has only 4 cards that can complete the Str Flush = Ace, 5, 6, & 7. I understand the the rule to be holding 3 to a StrFlush begins with 5-6 + deuce. This allows the options to use the deuce in several locations and provides more cards to complete the StrFlush. 5-6 + 2 allows the 2, 3, 4, 7, 8 & 9 to complete the hand.

Like you I don't always understand the rules/exceptions and can play better when I get the rationale. I'm sure someone can explain it better or more clearly.

BTW: I concur with checking out the Palms. PM me an I will give you the name of a former Red Rock host who is now at the Palms. He got us a great corner suite since he knew of our RR play.

LL

[New2vp]

I'm trying to improve my deuces game and have been playing the training mode...I've learned a lot but still missing some plays and only hitting about 94% So my question is:

Why is it right to hold the JK, JQ, J10,K10,KQ but WRONG to hold the AQ, AK, AJ.. I held an AJ and got a natural royal..This just doesn't seem logical to me...Also I noticed the training mode goes for some SFlushes and not others...I held a 2 34suited and it was wrong, but some others were correct...Can someone give me the reason for these plays..Once I can see the logic in a play I can stick to it...Any help would be appreciated as I have to play a lot of hands to get to the ones that are giving me trouble...kjohn, I agree in general with what damule and LL have written.  The rules are slightly different depending on the exact pay schedule that you are playing, so you will have to adjust your strategy from game to game.  I'm a whole lot more wordy so take of the following what you want and, like worthless cards in video poker, "discard" the rest (if the expected value of the advice isn't worth the length of time it takes to understand it). Let me first address your words that I bolded in blue above.  When using the training mode, if you click on the "PICK" button, you can select the exact cards that you want the next hand to be...OR you can select from 1 to 4 hands that you want the computer to pick with random cards in the spaces that you do not pick.  That should help you narrow down the combinations of cards that are correct to hold without having to wait for the computer to randomly get to the hands that are causing you trouble.Part ONE.As the other guys said, not all 2-card royals are created equal.  (I'll use a T for a ten in what follows.)  While holding all of the 2-card royals give you an equal chance at a natural royal or a wild royal with deuces, some of these also give you many more chances at the more common final hands of straight flushes and straights that are also valuable while waiting for that elusive royal.  All of these 2-card royal holds do allow for an AKQJT straight, but...Generally, the value of JT is greater than the value of QT,QJ because with JT you can make 3 different kinds of straight flushes or additional straights (KQJT9, QJT98, and JT987), while with either QT or QJ, you can only make 2 different kinds of straight flushes or additional straights (KQJT9 and QJT98).  KT,KJ, and KQ have lower values still because you can make only one kind of straight flush or additional straight (KQJT9), while you can't make any straight flushes or additional straights at all with AT,AJ,AQ,AK.PART TWO.  (Most people are happy to ignore this second part; in fact, I think I have read Bob Dancer to say that almost no one plays some deuces wild games perfectly due to the complexity that follows.)With many deuces wild games, you will find something that is more confusing than the question you raised...and you will undoubtedly come across these examples just when you think you have it all figured out.Sometimes you might hold KQ (for example) and sometimes you might toss all five cards when KQ suited is available.  Many people do not want to delve into this level of minutia, but this might involve penalty cards such as cards of the same suit as the KQ (that restrict the number of flushes that you can draw) or cards like 9, T, J, or A that restrict the possible number of straights that you can get.  More confusing is that the value of tossing 5 cards and drawing 5 new cards is different depending on the exact cards that you throw away.  This is because you will have different chances of getting flushes, straights, or straight flushes, depending on the exact cards you throw away.In full pay Deuces Wild with KeQe 8`4`3` , it is better to draw 5 new cards and with  KeQe 8`4c3` , it is better to hold  KeQe.  The value of KeQe is the same in both instances but the value of drawing 5 new cards is higher in the first case because you can get more flushes and straight flushes when discarding KeQe 8`4`3` than when discarding KeQe 8`4c3`.Because this is so confusing, many people develop personal strategies to simply always hold KJ or KQ suited or never to hold them.  Some will toss the KJ or KQ if they have another suited card and keep them if they do not.  You just have to choose the level of complexity that you want unless you want to map out every possible combination."2-card Straight Flushes plus a deuce" in Deuces Wild games come in 7 different classes, ranked below from most valuable to least valuable.  They are only played when the value of holding the 2-card SF + Deuce is greater than the value of holding the Deuce alone.  So, while holding class one cards is almost always the right play, it is almost never appropriate to hold class 7 cards.  With each game, you have to experiment or use something like WinPoker to find which SF cards to hold and which to toss.Class 1:  76,87,98,T9 - 30 different ways to make a straight flush.  E.g., with 2-T9 (all hearts), you can make a SF with:          2 of the 3 remaining deuces (3 ways)          1 of the deuces with the K of hearts (3 ways)          1 of the deuces with the Q of hearts (3 ways)          1 of the deuces with the J of hearts (3 ways)          1 of the deuces with the 8 of hearts (3 ways)          1 of the deuces with the 7 of hearts (3 ways)          1 of the deuces with the 6 of hearts (3 ways)          KQ of hearts, KJ, QJ, Q8, J8, J7, 87, 86, 76 (1 way each)Class 2:  65,75,86,97,T8,J9 - 25 different way to make SFClass 3:  54 - 24 diff. waysClass 4:  64,74,85,96,T7,J8,Q9 - 20 diff. waysClass 5:  43,53 - 19 diff. waysClass 6:  63,73,84,95,T6,J7,Q8,K9 - 15 diff. waysClass 7:  3A,4A,5A - 10 diff. ways There is also a PART TWO to this rationale similar to the green type above that many strong players ignore.  The value of a lone deuce varies greatly depending on the exact 4 cards that are thrown away.  But as you can see, I've written enough already.Good luck on your efforts to improve your play!

[shadowman]

Let me add one thing that affect many deuces variations. If the flush plays 3:1 vs 2:1 it usually has the following impacts on strategy. I believe bonus deuces pays 3:1 and new2vp covered some of this in his detailed analysis.
 
1) Hold 4 to a flush instead of a pair (no deuces)
2) Hold standalone Ax (where x is T-K) vs holding nothing (no deuces)
3) Hold Ax with one deuce vs. just the deuce.
 
If you run into a FPDW game (where both the straight and flush pay 2:1 and 4oak pays 5:1) then you would do the opposite in the above 3 choices as well as holding a single pair over two pair. In addition, you would go for both inside and outside straights vs. tossing all 5 cards.
 
Hope you're not too confused by now. The best thing to do is write some of this stuff down on a cheat sheet until you have it all memorized. Or, you can go to vpgenius.com and print off his strategies.

[kjohn]

OMG...My coffee hasn't digested yet and I'm reading all this!!!!...BUT..thank you all so much...It does make more sense now...I've played Dancer's site and never could understand why he was holding certain plays...I'll keep practicing on the trainer and try to narrow down a method that works...but I understand the concept much better..Also thanks for the tip on how to utilize the trainer better....You guys are too great...
LL, we will definitely get to the Palms on our month stay in Jan but since we have a condo won't need the rooms...Between Shadowman's picks of places to play and other suggestions and relatives who have gotten wind of our stay and plan to visit us the time will fly....Thanks again...Very helpful info..