Question about Kings in Deuces

[FloridaPhil]

I have been playing a lot of Deuces Wild lately and am trying to get better at it.  I use Dancers VP for Winners software to train.  I'm going to the Beau Rivage in Biloxi in a couple of weeks and the .25 deuces pay schedules are pretty terrible (20,10,9,4,4,3,2,1), but the hotel is great and the rooms are free.  I am having a problem understanding the no deuce KQ, KJ, K10 plays.   I read this rule yesterday "Keep KQ, KJ, K10 unless the discards are the same suit or higher than 9".  This works most of the time, but Dancer's software gives a minor error once in a while.  Can anyone explain this to me?  Thanks!

[jm002546]

Go to this site and use it!  I just started learning 100.17 DB, and the strategy given at WOOsite was giving me so many errors that I felt I had to revise, or improve upon the strategy.So, I built my own. Whenever his strategy led to an error, I would go to the hand analyzerto see why and what exceptions led to a definable additional rule.  This makes you start adjusting the cards, etc. until you sort of teach yourself what the heck is going on.  Don't give up, just keep thinking about it and you will eventually be able to figure out the "why."It's not easy, and I'm still having to refine my rules, even correct them, but it has been a great learning experience.For instance, my FPDW last 3 rules for 0 deuces are:8. 3 stfl9. 4 ins st x missing deuce10. 2rf but no A, no K w/penalty, QJ-QTs better than 4 ins st, JTs better than 3stfl spread 5 and 4 ins stBy the way, I transfer the strategy into my own lingo and suit-type draws are printed in red, suit and denom in green, the rest black.  Helps a lot.3K4FL3STFL   

[shadowman]

Phil, believe it or not it gets down to the value of your discards. Some of them reduce the value of a complete redraw more than others. So, it's not the value of KQ that's changing, it's the value of the redraw.
 
Personally, I think you're already at a level of accuracy that would be hard to improve. Sometimes, the more you look for obscure situations the more often you miss obvious things.

[FloridaPhil]

I'm beginning to realize that.  I'm playing less than 100% games anyway, so all I'm doing is cutting my loses.   Most of my DW errors in VP for Winners are worth less than a few cents.  If you get 2 sets of deuces, the odds don't matter much ...

[New2vp]

I agree with shadowman.  When making comparisons between the changing value of a complete redraw is necessary to determine whether to make a particular hold or toss all 5 cards, it is often not practical either to remember the rule or to look it up on a strategy sheet while playing.The rule that you mentioned:  "Keep KQ, KJ, K10 unless the discards are the same suit or higher than 9" is a rule that addresses the changing value of the 2-card royal, so it is more valuable (and certainly easier) to remember.  Some are not concerned even with that level of detail.Nevertheless, if you want to know generally how the values of the redraw changes to help you understand how these "minor errors" occur, it is helpful to remember a couple rules.(1) When you have a more even distribution of suits in your 5 cards, the value of a complete redraw will be lower because you will have fewer chances to draw 5-cards to a flush.  So  if all 5 cards are of the same ranks, the value of a complete redraw will be highest if you have a 3-2 suit split and only 2 suits in the dealt hand.  Next would be a 3-1-1 suit split, followed by a 2-2-1 suit split.  Finally we get to the most even distribution possible, a 2-1-1-1 suit split which produces the lowest EV for a redraw.  A lower value for a redraw is going to give a hold like KQ, KJ, KT a better chance to be higher in value than a redraw.(2) If the ranks are closer to the ends than the middle of AKQJT98765432A, the value of the redraw will be more valuable because you will have a better chance of getting a 5-card straight.  A five through ten interferes with most straight possibilities.  This is followed by a Jack or Four; next in line is a Queen or Three; followed by any King, Ace, or Deuce.  (I put an ace on both ends to remind that it can make either a high or low straight).  Note: in many games where there is a payoff for Jacks or Better, you will never redraw when any card is a "pay pair card," a jack or higher.  (Edit:  Since the T in KT is closer to the center than the J in KJ, redraws from KTxyz are less valuable than redraws from KJxyz. Thus, other ranks and suits equal, KT will be better hold compared to a redraw than will KJ and will be held more often.  There is identical logic which makes KJ held more often than KQ.)There are other things that affect the value of a redraw:(a) A Ten being absent makes the redraw more valuable in many games that pay for jacks or better, because the redraw has a chance for 4 royals instead of 3.(b) In games with higher payoffs for quad 2s thru 4s (or for quad aces plus a 2-4 kicker), the redraw is more valuable when 2s thru 4s are absent in the dealt hand, because you have a greater chance to get a set of these high-paying quads.Then we really get into minutia that no one really needs to know from a recreational player's perspective, with (i) consecutive suited cards in the deal allowing a redraw to be more valuable since more straight flushes are available and (ii) less spacing between the ranks of dealt cards, suited or not, allowing the redraw to have more straights.  These last two are for real diehard theorists that insist on 100% computer correct play and remembering or applying this knowledge will, for many people, likely never provide a reasonable return for taking the trouble to understand, learn, or practice such plays.These same principles apply when analyzing holds that are comprised only of wild cards in deuces and/or joker games.Now, if you really want to get exhausted from theory overload, you can try to understand the differing values of a complete redraw in one of shadowman's favorite games, one-eyed jacks, where the values are different depending on whether the suits are hearts or spades (where there is a 1-eyed jack in the suit) or clubs or diamonds (where there isn't).  But there are plenty of other things to figure out about video poker before ever tackling that situation!

[shadowman]

Now, if you really want to get exhausted from theory overload, you can try to understand the differing values of a complete redraw in one of shadowman's favorite games, one-eyed jacks, where the values are different depending on whether the suits are hearts or spades (where there is a 1-eyed jack in the suit) or clubs or diamonds (where there isn't).  But there are plenty of other things to figure out about video poker before ever tackling that situation!




 
Yup, and that's one of the easy ones.

[jm002546]

I'm beginning to realize that.  I'm playing less than 100% games anyway, so all I'm doing is cutting my loses.   Most of my DW errors in VP for Winners are worth less than a few cents.  If you get 2 sets of deuces, the odds don't matter much ... Bob Dancer wants to learn EVERY correct hold.  Granted, his errors are multiple in magnitude to ours, but that attitude still helps explain why he is a great player.  I play FPDW 25 cent  and the profit potential is very close to 1 cent/hand.  So, it makes me want to know exceptions. If a few cents don't matter, what the hell am I doing playing for only 1 cent per hand? I don't love to play VP at all, but I do love going to the casino, and it's the cheapest thing I can do there.  I at least have a goal to master the game and that's the part that is worthwhile.