How much do we still not know?

[roveer]

It occurred to me after reading much of the "single game vs multi-game" thread that there is still a pretty big question in many minds whether VP machines are rigged.  Let's discuss.I'll define the term "Rigged" as follows:  Anything that would make a vp machine not follow a true rng and paytable payout process.  Any sort of user (casino) settable menu or control system that would regulate payouts, hits, %'s of cash in to cash out etc.  Anything that would alter a RNG from doing it's thing randomly or changing based on any outside factor the ability of the machine to deal any given hand including multipliers and or cards. Based on that, I came to question why it is 20 years into the modern VP industry we, the more knowledgable players are still quite in the dark on this topic.  Is it possible that this is still a well kept secret?  My god, I've learned more about far more cryptic (and cryptographic) systems than this, yet I sitll find myself questioning whether we don't know squat about how these machines work.  Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about the possibility of a small casino rigging the machine, but more the industry itself.  No one from any of the larger VP manufucures has ever made a definitive statement?  No one from any ofthe casino's has ever said, yes, we limit pays based on some criteria?  We are left (from reading the above mentioned post), to wonder if the games are rigged based on our experiences of 1000's of hands dealt and the feeling we get?  Don't get me wrong, I have all the same feelings, some nights it's hit after hit, and some its drain drain drain, but I won't base my understanding of the industry on that. So, why am I writing this long rambling post?  Well, I guess I'd like to know.  Are the machines rigged?  I'd like to make my decision to play or not to play based on an actual understanding that it's me against the RNG and pay table or those 2 things, and a casino controlled set of limits based on their balance sheet.  It's to me, the most important thing I can learn.  After all, we spend tons of time trying to have the highest percentage of perfect play we can, but why bother if it's more likely conrolled by outside factors.  It's like learning all about a piece of property and than buying that property only to find out you can't build a house on it.  It's a question of great importance, unless of course you just like to put the money in the machine and look at the pretty lights and sounds, and I will admit, to some that's all it is.  But that's not how I roll. Now, some would say I've taken the fun out of it with all this analysis, (I get that a lot, especially when I buy new cars), but to me, it's all part of the process and I would think that for at least some here it is too. So how do we get to a final decision that "for the most part" in the major casinos that the machines are either rigged or not rigged?  How do we answer that question?  I for one would like to put an end to the speculation. Roveer 

[rascal]

If a casino is in a jurisdiction that is tightly regulated, then it is a matter of the player analyzing the positive and negative outcomes of the casino rigging the games. The positive outcome is that the casino can maybe add a few more points to its usually already outstanding profit margin. The negative outcome is that the casino can lose its license and thus kill the golden goose that lays the golden eggs. For me, its a no-brainer. Casinos make a ton of easy money legally.....why risk losing it all?
 
But....my positive outcome/negative outcome consideration does not include casinos that are not, in my opinion, regulated to the degree that I am confident of. The states that I primarily play in, Nevada and Mississippi, are considered to be very tightly regulated. I do not play at cruise boat casinos, Indian casinos, or the truck stop "casinos" that exist in Louisiana (not to be confused with the regular Louisiana casinos.)
 
I am sure that others on this board will take issue with my definition of which casinos are or are not tightly regulated. But I think the individual player has to have tremendous confidence in the regulation, and if he does not, then he won't (or shouldn't) play there.

[edog743]

The bulk of the TRIBAL casino's regulation's in most state's mirror nevada's casino regulation's to the letter. As for the other's you mentioned, Rascal I have no idea.

[shadowman]

Once again, the casinos do not and cannot program VP machines. The programming is done by the machine manufacturers who must pass inspections with multiple state agencies for them to sell their equipment in the states.
The biggest supplier of VP machines is IGT. They are a multi-million dollar corporation that reports to its shareholders. Can you imagine what would happen to any executive that did anything to damage their reputation? They have 90% of the VP market. It would be insane for them to collude with any casino to introduce rigged machines. They have no control over the casinos where a disgruntled employee might spill the beans.


 
In NV the state gaming board also reviews the code that goes into machines and spot checks casinos to make sure the machines contain the exact level of code they reviewed.
 
Of course, none of that guarantees that machines might not have programming bugs. Therefore, it is always smart to track one's results and if you don't feel comfortable playing at a particular casino then don't play.

[SaraTG]

I keep forgetting to grab one of those "House Advantage" things off the top of the ATMs up at the casino.  It's one of those responsible gaming things they put up there. I don't want to mis-state what it says so I won't qioute it until I get one this weekend or next weekend. But if I recall correctly it says something like casino games are designed (Or programed) to take in more money than they pay out.  

[EDC1977]

  There will always be a house advantage based solely on the amount of full pay paytables and players who don't play at near perfect play. This will always give the house the edge. Think of how often you've seen less than inviting paytables yet still played? The occasional RF payout doesn't equal amount they take in. I've experienced enough "randomness"  to be convinced they aren't rigged. As Shadow stated, keep tabs on your play and I think you'll see they payout accordingly.

[roveer]

So the consensus seems to be that in the major markets the machines are not rigged and that the casinos make plenty enought money based purely on pay table including the crappy ones and people's lousey play.  Of course that's still being based on speculation and "feeling", but I have no couner argument other than the occasional story about some folks seeing specials "menus" when a technician is inside the machine.  Of course a quick glimpse of a menu doesn't really give us any information about it's exact purpose.   I guess to add to the feeling argument, on my STP trainer I've had a pretty big run lately and over the past week have had a pretty big dry spell.  If this is based purely on RNG than I guess we need to learn more about the RNG to determine if there's any possible way to know when to play or when to get away from a machine.  I don't know if there is anything that can be learned but if there is, I'd like to try.  I do notice with STP that most of the time the first 20-40 hands don't really produce much.  This seems like it happens all the time.  I've noticed my buddy always saying to me, you always go "deep" on those machines, meaning that I keep playing even after lack luster starts.  Sometimes things turn and the hand pays start, some times not, but it always seems like it takes a good 30-40 minutes, sometimes longer before anything happens.  This phenomonon very well may take out the low end players because they just don't have the bankroll to plough through.  I've also noticed that if I gap my play things tend to go better.  I'm guessing it's nothing more than "not losing as fast" because I play slower, but if I go in there like gangbusters, heart racing, button slapping, nothing really happens.  It's not very enjoyable either. Roveer   

[ed1957]

Once again, the casinos do not and cannot program VP machines. The programming is done by the machine manufacturers who must pass inspections with multiple state agencies for them to sell their equipment in the states.
The biggest supplier of VP machines is IGT. They are a multi-million dollar corporation that reports to its shareholders. Can you imagine what would happen to any executive that did anything to damage their reputation? They have 90% of the VP market. It would be insane for them to collude with any casino to introduce rigged machines. They have no control over the casinos where a disgruntled employee might spill the beans.


 
In NV the state gaming board also reviews the code that goes into machines and spot checks casinos to make sure the machines contain the exact level of code they reviewed.
 
Of course, none of that guarantees that machines might not have programming bugs. Therefore, it is always smart to track one's results and if you don't feel comfortable playing at a particular casino then don't play.
Speaking about bugs in the code how did the fellow out in Pittsburgh "rip off" the casino by having the double up function turned on his machine? Did IGT fix this on that paticular software version with a patch? Never read anything about it other then he got convicted.

[DaBurglar]

The nevada gaming commission does not "spot check code" on machines....if things at a casino ever deteriorated to the point where the "code" is called into question, then they would have to check ALL video poker machines.   There are three primary ways gaming commissions check out video poker machines (when and if they have the time, resources and need to check out individual machines):  (1) They can first get a printout of the individual machine's cash in/ cash out results for a desired time period, and the casinos in Nevada are required to maintain a minimum of 3 years data, unless the machine is too new to go back that far....this 3 years also must include the actual HAND histories of that machine....this of course is no big deal since the typical data storage capacity on modern VP machines is huge.  This information must also be easily downloadable into or onto the gaming commission's analytical capacity (whether a portable laptop, or sent to the commission's facility via electronic data transfer.)       (2)  The gaming commission examines the settings on the specific machine's to make certain they are set to properly deal the game(s) advertised and displayed.  More often than not, these settings are established at the point of manufacture and the casinos rarely if ever mess with them....but these settings displayed on a user set up menu allow any regulatory body the ability to quickly eyeball a machine to determine compliance.   (3)  If either of the first two methods raises questions or concerns, or if the commission already has an agenda to dig deeper and check a machine or group of machines, they can hook up a video poker machine to a special laptop or other device with a program that can run simulations of (litaerally) millions of hands, analyze and organize the data from these simulations and then determine if the results fall within acceptable limits or levels of variance and expectations given the game(s) being tested.  IGT produces machines for most north american casinos, per each property's requirements and specifications......naturally there is a lot of standardization in this process but also signifcant differences and variance per each state and territories requirements and regulations.  But if a casino in atlantic city wants to set 10% of its video poker machines to NEVER deal a royal flush IGT has nothing to do with this nor can it be blamed.   And again, this whole "Losing one's license" mindset is ridiculous, but I already beat that to death in the other thread. 

[shadowman]

The nevada gaming commission does not "spot check code" on machines
 
I said they spot check the machines. I never said they spot check the code. They do this to assure the proper chips are installed. If the right chips are installed then it contains the code they have reviewed. There really is a purpose to their policies.
 
Why don't you contact IGT and get answers to your concerns. Then get back to us with real facts instead of this constant guesswork.