SHOWBOAT

[TKO]

I intially posted this is another section. I am now starting a new thread for Showboat as well as to respond to DaBurgular.
 
Hey Debugular,
 
I mainly read posts rather than join them. I have read your current and past posts egarding the VP in AC. Although there were a couple of months when I was agreeing with you that somehting didnt seem right witht the VP, this has changedin the last 3 months. I play VP at Showboat. Predominantly Super Times Pay. (not at Roveers level) 3 lines .25 denomination. If Im ahead will play .50. I have had a hand pay almost every trip on my last 4-5 visits. I have been able to build my winning so the 1k level and cash out several times.
 
My last visit (2 weeks ago) I inserted 20.00 free play. About 3 spins later was dealt
4 aces with kicker for a 3k (50 cents ) I play DDB.
 
I have had several 500 and 1k hits on the single VP in the smoking section by the main bar as well.
 
Just figured I would let you know that I am having decent luck there. (even with bad 7/5 paytable.
 
 

[DaBurglar]

great   I'm glad for you..... my rants about AC revolve around the fact that my experiences essentially echo what you just posted, namely that months go by when NOTHING hits and then all of a sudden it is like someone flips a switch and VOILA, you have a period when you seem to win consistently. Except my bad streak has extended for the past 6 months, along with other people I know, and at times is so bad it defies mathematical expectations (on the bad side) What I believe is possible, and what friends and associates with inside knowledge describe to me, is that casinos can set certain machines to either pay more or less than what is normal or expected.   Your results of late neither prove nor disprove this theory, but I would ask you to honestly assess whether your period of winning meets or exceeds your period of losing, and would also ask when you were losing, just how bad was it?  were you still within acceptable mathematical boundaries in your "bad sessions" or was it way out of bounds? One last thing, even if casinos can and do set some machines to pay less, they cannot keep such machines et like this forever for the obvious reasons.....in other words, we should expect things to come and go just like you have experienced. I never play super times pay so I cannot speak intelligently on that game, but due to its volatility and advantage already built in I would NOT expect that to be a game the casinos would feel the need to mess with..... all the same, thanks for sharing and keep up the reports. 

[Stan_7777]

VP machines pay out according to their pay tables which are there for ALL to see. They pay what they pay according to what you see, the combos are in the software RNG, (Random Number Generator) which runs 24/7 and you get paid accordingly . No they are never set to pay less then what the pay tables show. You get what you see. If some how the casino did not give you what the pay table shows, they would lose their license which would not be worth it. Everyone has cold spells. Casinos fixing VP machines to pay less is just conspiracy theory bunk.

[FloridaPhil]

Here we go again...  DaBurglar believes he should get the games calculated odds every time he plays, or at least over a small period of time.  This is not the way Video Poker works.  Streaks come and they go in this game and sometimes they last a very long time. In 2008, I had the most incredible year ever... I just couldn't lose.  Since then, I've had bad streaks that lasted just as long.  I don't know DaBurglar, but I think he needs to get off this conspiracy theory or quit playing the game.  I feel sorry for him and would like to see him out of his misery. 

[Mikeinri]

Here we go again...  DaBurglar believes that he should get the games calculated odds every time he plays, or at least over a small period of time.  This is not the way Video Poker works.  Streaks come and they go in this game and sometimes they last a very long time. In 2008, I had the most incredible year ever... I just couldn't lose.  Since then, I've had bad streaks that lasted just as long.  I don't know DaBurglar, but I think he needs to get off this conspiracy theory or quit playing the game.  I feel sorry for him and would like to see him out of his misery.  Sometimes, just sometimes, conspiracy theories come true.  Just ask Larry Volk. Or the people who got swindled on the Venetian drawings.And NOBODY "lost their license" over any of it. Even VP expert Frank Kneeland has stated he uncovered  machine rigging -think it was at the Riviera or Sahara. A couple years ago the media refused to cover a "conspiracy theory" that the regime was targeting political dissidents through IRS harassment.Ya never know...

[FloridaPhil]

I'm sure they do happen, but a video poker rigging scandal in Atlantic City?  I'm sure the AC casinos could get a lot more money from some other racket.  It would be easier to drop the slot machine odds by 10%. They could get a lot more money and slot players would never notice the difference.  If you believe video poker is rigged in AC or anywhere else, don't play.  The last time I was in AC I got food poisoning and laid in bed for 3 days.   As far as I'm concerned they could burn the place down, but I don't think they're rigging DeBurglar's or anyone elses video poker machine.

[sam434343]

Phil, I don't think Daburglar saying there rigged, he is saying something is not right(in AC) with the machine and hes trying to find out what if anything, Its his time and effort. Nothing ventured nothing gained. If he finds something than he can let us know if he finds nothing, well he will let us know. Sam

[DaBurglar]

 

I'm sure they do happen, but a video poker rigging scandal in Atlantic City?  I'm sure the AC casinos could get a lot more money from some other racket.  It would be easier to drop the slot machine odds by 10%. They could get a lot more money and slot players would never notice the difference.  If you believe video poker is rigged in AC or anywhere else, don't play.  The last time I was in AC I got food poisoning and laid in bed for 3 days.   As far as I'm concerned they could burn the place down, but I don't think they're rigging DeBurglar's or anyone elses video poker machine.
  I was just perusing the forum and happend upon this thread which was revived, and although I did not intend to post here or rant this evening, since I just returned again from a short impromptu 3 day visit to AC (which was ostensibly for a friend's WEDDING followed by his redeployment to Afghanistan so it was also a "good bye for 8 months" party as well, I did not go there this time simply to play VP like I have previously, but naturally, while there enjoying the nuptials and food I played as usual and received the typical shiiiiiiiiiiiteeeeeee results, but more on the specifics of that later....) Hey Phil, thanks for the advice, but dont be offended if I dont take it okay?  Because you clearly have missed the point(s) I have made along the way in constructing my "conpsiracy theory".....namely, as of late and as of right this moment, I have made it clear in my recent posts that AC is NOT illegally rigging their machines per se and not engaging in conspiracy, but in fact it seems that the casinos in AC CAN, if they so choose, set their VP machines internally (i.e. not ivolving the paytable) so that the machine has a Return to Player that can range as low as 88%....!  The reason for this, in simplest terms, is that New Jersey Gaming regs classify VP machines as simply just another type of SLOT machine!   I'm still getting to the bottom of this, but it does conveniently explain the ridiculous VP results tha both myself and lot of other players have experienced in various joints throughout AC. Now before all the players who have won in AC in the past go batturds(and this includes me back in 2011 when I did have a profittable year overall in AC but even then there were some extremely weird signs of aberrant machines that transcended normal standard deviations for randomness), let me first say that every casinos in AC must make the etermnation with each single VP machine just waht excat RTP% they will set the machine up with....this usually ranges from the highest possible setting of whatever the paytable dictates (such as a 9/6 JOB machine being left alone without any internal modifications so that the 99.52% RTP stands alone), to taking another 9/6 JOB machine and setting the normal 45.41% AVERAGE payable hand rate down to a 43% average, or 40% or whatever so that the RTP falls accordingly but still within the LOWEST allowable range by law of 88% RTP for slot machines.   Each casino in AC mixes amd matches its VP games according to whatever strategy they happen to be following.....paytables in AC are simply only PART of the story with VP, unlike Nevada where the paytable is the beginning and end of the story in determining what the %RTP is on any given VP machine. This explains the vast differences in performance between casinos and their VP, whereby Borgata and HArrah's, the top two casinos in ac BY FAR have normal video poker performance in that it is a nice steady mix of winners and losers all within expected normal ranges of Video Poker play (you'd figure this given Borgata is run by Boyd, a Vegas stalwart company that knows how important it is to give players a REALISTIC expectation that they can in fact win once in a while IF they follow good procedure and practices.      But when you run into the Boardwalk dens of iniquity who are struggling month to month (hell week to week in some cases) they set the paytables as lowas the market will bear and THEN on select machines they internally increase/decrease the randomized payable hand rate to help increase the hold from the VP (aka SLOT) machines and even more important, lessen the likelihood of a big payable VP jackpot ......you guys do not realize just how desperate places like Trump Plaza, Resorts or the AC club really are...... In Wednesdays (May 22) edition of the PRESS of ATLANTIC CITY, there was yet ANOTHER article on the front page blaring the headlines "Gaming Income falls 64% in last year!"     This has been a regular unabated litany of headlines saying this exact same message, since 2007....AC hs been in nonstop freefall decline.    When I saw this past Wednesdays edition however, lamenting a 64 (SIXTY FOUR)% decline when comparing QUarter 1 of 2012 with Quarter 1 of current fiscal year (2013) I was both aghast and yet also calmly resigned.   Nothing new here folks....the practice of cutting the VP machines return even further beyond the mere paytables started not long after the business began leaving the city for other places (or just plan Leaving period as the economy exaporated much biz overnight.)    it used to be during the flush tmes of the late 1990s and early 2000s that AC set its VP ("slot") machines just like Vegas, with the paytables being the end of the story, but with one exceptional difference.....in Vegas, casinos could set their paytables as player friendly high as they wanted, whereby they could set a paytble to return 102, 103 or more %!    Not so in AC, as NJ state law prohibits any SLOT (not vp SLOT) machine having a theoretical return of 100% or higher....so there you have the germination of the situation we now faced today. In fairness, I should point out that a part of that 64% is largely due to the fiasco that is Revel, and if you remove Revel then the figure improves to "only" a 30% drop (but Borgie and Harrahs are still VERY healthy)    Still, a casino like AC club or Resorts or Trumpplaza, which already have low monthly revenue, cannot afford even a few Royal Jackpots of potentially higher denominations without it causing serious problems with them making their numbers to survive another month!  I'm serious.....and since they have successfully converted the vast majority of slots to the putird 1cent variety with is obscene HOLD percentage and its puny paltry top jackpot payouts, it now rests to the VP "slot" machines to represent the biggest "RISK" to the casino's monthly numbers, hence the gradual yet relentless disappearance in all AC casinos of Video Poker machines!!!!! Bottom line folks is this:   in 2009, when I first started playing VP in AC, I (wrongly) assumed the game of VP worked the same in AC as it does in Vegas/Nevada......WRONG!    Huge significant differences exist and this easily explains the aberrant horrible results I logged over the past year (October 2012 to present day.....) It was not a case of cheating on the part of AC casinos, it is simply SYSTEMIC, That's just the way it is!   And if I am honest, this makes complete 100% sense to explain my results....it also means we must now be VERY VERY careful and selective in choosing when and where to play VP in AC, IF AT ALL!!!!!

[FloridaPhil]

What I think you are saying is that since the economic downturn casinos have reprogrammed video poker machines to pay back less then the posted odds.  I'm a retired computer programmer, so I need to get my mind around this. In Jacks most of the payback is tied up in the Royal, so all they would have to do is to rewrite the program so that Royals don't happen. That seems easy enough.  In DDB the majority of the payback is in quads.  This gets a little more complicated.  You would need to keep track of the number of quads and the type of each quad plus kick out the Royals.  The program for deuces would be completely different.  In addiiton, you would need to write the program so that only some of the payouts were reduced so that regular players wouldn't notice. Now I assume New Jersey has some kind of gambling commission that checks the RNGs.  If the problem is truely as you descibe, the Casinos, Gambling Commission, slot manufacturers and engineers would all have to be working together. This seems like a lot of work and expense just to fleece video poker players.  I'm not going to play in AC any time soon, but you seem to be suggesting this is happening all over the country.  I'll keep an open mind on this and see if anything becomes of it.    

[Stan_7777]

Nice thoughtful post however I tend to disagree with it. No matter what you say casinos don't build these beautiful buildings on "winners" money. They are in the business to make a profit. Gambling is just what it is and that is gambling. You takes your chances. If you're good you lose less. You work on comps. There are not many professionals that make a whole lot of money gambling no matter how good they are. Some do and they do it by working their butts off literally sitting at VP machines for hours on end, more hours than you work on a normal working day. A pro does not earn all his money with his or her gambling. They have endorsements if they have a big name, write books and or teach. I saw Jimmy the Greek at Saratoga Racetrack many years ago after he was fired from his TV job and he had holes in his shoes. He made fortunes at poker tables and lost just as many. My point being again that it's the nature of gambling, again you're good at it. you lose less.
I also played VP in Vegas, Florida, Connecticut and A.C. and found them all the same. I have been to all the casinos in A.C. including Borgata, same thing. (BTW, most of the casinos in A.C. are run by Vega based corporations). The reason gambling is down in A.C. is many fold. Economy, everyone and his cousin is building casinos all around New Jersey, New York is looking to put in seven more casinos, not to mention the ones going up in Pennsylvania and Connecticut, lotto games up the kazoo. A.C. is not the only game in town any more. So think about it, (I have a feeling you won't), it does not make sense for casinos to fix machines to pay out less. How are you going to compete if your product is worse than your competitor. Bringing in the fact that casinos are losing money even debunks the idea that casinos would cut back on pay outs.
Again, RNG the heart of VP machines or any other machine for that matter, it sends out billions of poker combinations per day. You hit the deal button and you get the deal at whatever number the deal was at the time. Ten cards are dealt from a 52 card deck. Five shown and the five waiting to be picked from when you choose to drop cards from the original five. You're paid according to that particular games pay table. Because you are not a winner all of the time is because of this tiresome word called gambling. If you play your game one hundred percent perfect you still will not win one hundred percent of the time. What the average player should concentrate on is play the game the best they can and accumulate comps and have a good time.
I do not or have not every seen anyone prove their or any conspiracy theory in VP. I know that people believing in them will not change their minds. They live on the mystery of something not being what it seems and no amount of proof disproving their theory will change them. As ForidaPhil says too many people would have to be involved to make any sense at all for the little return. Once again you don't get people into your casino by paying out less. As an example, if you own a business say selling appliances and a competitor moves across the street taking some of your customers; do you increase your prices? The same is true if casinos lower the pay outs, it's the same as increasing your prices.
Addressing the fiasco that is REVEL, the designer and or the marketer of this casino should be sent back to kindergarten for setting up the Monte Carlo style casino on the board walk of Atlantic City. Apparently they did not study the area and the type of gambler that goes there. Most of the people like myself, retired, blue collar and middle working class types. The whales are in Monte Carlo, Macao and Vegas, not A.C.