Slot returns adjusted

[olds442jetaway]

I got this information from a fellow vp player who I have seen playing for years. Any other info he has given me over the years has proven to be correct so I have no reason to doubt him on this latest example.
   Very recently, this vp player at Mohegan Sun took a break from playing vp and decided to play a regular slot. There were two slot techs working on the machine right next to the one he was playing. He did not say what denomination, but I suspect nickels based on his prior vp play. He actually observed the slot tech tapping the screen and lowering the player return percentage from 92% down down until it hit 90%. He asked the tech why he was doing this and got no answer. The other slot tech quietly said that they have to and didn't elaborate. The tech also said that was the minimum allowable. I really don't know what the minimum allowable is in Ct., but maybe the house has their own minimum set also. I researched the player returns which is public information and for nickel slots it is right around 90%. Since vp machines are classified just as slots for revenue reporting purposes, I have to wonder if these percentages can be lowered like that on vp no matter what the paytable says. I don't know the answer, but if I ever find out they can be lowered like that on vp, that will be the end on any vp for me. I have no way of verifying this story, but the person who relayed the info to me has never given me a bum tip before. Interesting to say the least to actually see the percentage drop on the screen. Wish I had seen it first hand.

[alpax]

Thanks for sharing this olds. It is very useful information to me, I still have somewhat interest in slots though I do not play much of it anymore. I read on the American Casino Guide in the past it was regulated and changing payouts was not as easy as you've described. A whole new random number generator chip had to be replaced to adjust payout, now it seems like it can be done easily on the game's control panel. Not sure what the minimum is either, but the competitive return for a nickel denomination is about 90%, the penny slots are in the low 80% range.

To adjust (or to lower) payout on VP, they can simply change the paytable for the full house/flush payouts. I think the latest Game Kings have the theoretical payouts listed so the casino operator does not need to figure out exact paytable configuration.

This information is valuable so thanks again for sharing.

[notes1]

olds, thanks for info. acouple of months ago, i was watching a tv show that dealt with casinos, and they were focusing some of the show on the TAJ MAHAL. i do not know the original date of the show. the camera showed a couple of technicians take a slot machine off the floor, plug it into a computer, and on the slot machine face, up came a series of percentages. the tech simply clicked on a particular percentage and closed the machine. do not know the exact amount of time this took, but it did not appear to be very long and the machine had been adjusted to pay out a different percentage.    i think we are in a viscious cycle regarding casinos. the economy is not great, less people gambling, yet more casinos keep opening as a tax revenue source. this further reduces the number of players, so the casinos up their take. players reduce or adjust their play, so casinos react by further increasing their hold.  

[FloridaPhil]

And they will keep doing it so long as players keep playing the games.  They could reduce the odds to 50% and I'll bet (no pun intended) some people will still play .  I might if they offered 1 cent single coin games.

[olds442jetaway]

Our greatest interest of course is to find out if they can do this on vp machines without altering the paytables. For instance, if on a particular game a Royal is set to pay 4.000 credits and we know that will happen on most games every 40k hands or so, can they and this is the key inportant unknown change something to have the Royal hit every say 50k hands and still pay the 4,000 credits. That way we as players would have no way of knowing we might not be really playing a 9/6 99.54 machine on a job game. Likewise, could quads, full houses or any paying hand for that matter be set to come in differentlty than a return table would show like a full house every 125 hands and on and on. Again the pay table would show what we think is a nearly full pay game, but it would be whatever they want it to be within the law. The reason I am concerned about this is slot return percentages and vp are all lumped together when the returns are announced to the public. For a quarter game in Ct., those average right around 91% and that includes vp as well.

[Vman96]

I wouldn't worry about them being able to adjust VP like slot machines just because gaming revenue for slot machines are lumped together with video poker. This is the common practice with every state I am aware of including Nevada!

I hate that states do it this way though.

As for 90% being the lowest possible At Mohegan.   That's definitely not true. The 1/4c slots paid back about 86% last year.   The unit he was playing with though may have had a min payback of 90% though. It's up to the slot manufacturer to create payback ranges for their games.

And I think you're right alpax, VP games have the percentages listed for the slot techs corresponding to various paytables. Most people don't want to be a wacko like me and memorize various paybacks.


And finally from the Mohegan compact.

PDF can be found at this site:

CT tribal compact for Mohegan and Foxwoods

From pages 27 and 28 of the Mohegan compact:

[Quote](c) Technical standards for video facsimile games. Notwithstanding the
provisions of section 7 (a) of this Compact or section 31 of Appendix A, when any video facsimile of a game of chance identified in section 3 (a) (i) has been approved by the gaming regulatory agencies of the State of New Jersey, then any substantially similar version of such game must be approved by the gaming regulatory agencies of the State of New Jersey in accordance with regulations in effect under the gaming regulatory laws of
New Jersey, and the Tribe may operate (subject to the provisions of section 15 (a)) any video facsimile of such game which has been approved by the gaming regulatory agencies of the State of New Jersey. When no substantially similar version of a video facsimile game has been approved by the gaming regulatory agencies of the State of New Jersey, then such new game may be approved either in accordance with regulations in effect under the gaming regulatory laws of New Jersey or in accordance with section 31 of Appendix A. Notwithstanding the provisions of sub-section (a) of this section, the Tribal gaming agency shall not revise the standards of operation relating to technical standards for video facsimile games and set out as section 31 of Appendix A without the prior approval of the State gaming agency. Said standards may be revised by written agreement between the State gaming agency and the Tribal gaming agency following the
written recommendation and detailed explanation of the proposed amendment to such standards by the gaming test laboratory designated in accordance with such standards.[/quote]

Basically what this says is that they approve any game that New Jersey is willing to approve. I've made it pretty clear in the past on where I stand on the way video poker in New Jersey should operate according to their poorly worded laws.

Unfortunately they didn't include appendix A of the compact on the Internet. I looked for it for about an hour before giving up on that.   

[djc32]

I agree it seems silly that the casinos lump together slots and VP revenue.But don't they also lump together all the different table games as just table games revenue? Isn't it just an easy way for the casinos to report machine games vs live dealer/table games?

If a casino has machine games other than slots or VP ,like video keno, video BJ, or video craps are those lumped into the slot return revenues too?

[olds442jetaway]

Thanks vman for the additional information. I'm pretty sure that all machine games are counted as slots and everything is lumped together. Table game returns are not lumped in with patron slot returns. I don't even know if they publish those statistics, because the state just gets a percentage of revenue from slots as far as I know. I still have doubts in my mind on the vp returns or the machines being adjusted other than what paytables show, but until I find out first hand the " final answer ", I guess I will just be stuck with those doubts and either deal with them or not play. I don't think the not play part will happen any time soon, though the amounts played will definitely be less this year.

[Vman96]

I agree it seems silly that the casinos lump together slots and VP revenue.But don't they also lump together all the different table games as just table games revenue? Isn't it just an easy way for the casinos to report machine games vs live dealer/table games?

If a casino has machine games other than slots or VP ,like video keno, video BJ, or video craps are those lumped into the slot return revenues too?


Video keno goes with slots too. I am not sure about e-table games that are multi-player devices. But considering how casino accounting is generally done between table games and slots/VP, I wouldn't be surprised if they were also counted with slots/VP.

[djc32]

So if ALL machine games are lumped together as slots for state revenue reporting purposes , doesn't that mean the 91 % in CT is just an average of ALL machine game revenue?
For example, if the slot returns are say 84-90% and VP is 95-98% that would be a 91.75% average return .
So if there all lumped together as slots, I don't think slot returns released to the public is the way to determine anything about the pay back % on a VP machine , other than what the pay table says.