The magic number seems to be 2010

[olds442jetaway]

That seems to be about the year when many many vp players started to lose, lose, lose, and not just from the paytables. Many vp players were playing 96 percent paytables regularly even back then. My survey just at Mohegan Sun shows 50 or so players in that category and only 3 that said they win a little every year. Of the 50 or so that I would regularly see, only about 20 are left that I see on a regular basis and I know they didn't just move their play to Foxwoods. I can also count on 1 hand the new players in the under 30 crowd. They are too busy with the bars, girls, video games or all 3. This has been bantered about quite some time now, but seems to be coming up in the comments more often now. Any further comments welcome.

[FloridaPhil]

I think it has more to do with the proliferation of the newer games than anything else.  I have always played negative expectation games so I don't expect to win in the long run, but I haven't seen any real difference in the hands that are dealt to me.  I play only standard single line video poker.  Every time I've tried to play a game that relied on something other than the cards, I lost big time.  Variations like Super Times Pay, Ultimate X, Multistreak Poker and the like that rely on bonus hits make me nervous.  In the last 5 years or so, these games have become popular and the losses have mounted.  I may be alone in my thinking on this.As far as young people are concerned, I think it's more about disposable income than lack of interest.  Young people generally have less money and more to do with it.  Seniors have more money and nothing to do. 

[djc32]

That's a very good point Phil.
Another factor could be that most slot clubs have been slashed since 2010 (especially for VP) so free play and comps aren't what they used to be , which helped offset the bad pay tables.

Around that time is also when some players had to reduce or stop playing VP because of the country's finical crisis. And because of that some couldn't afford to play like they once did, and some just realized that with the reduction of comps and free play they weren't getting the same bang for there buck like they were before 2010 and just stopped playing.

[Carcounter]

Yeah, since 2010, 3 losing years, one small winning year and one good year. You have to be over-royaled to have a winning year unless you have a good run of deuces. Really no playable deuces in AC. All of my royals since 2010- 10 of them have been on the non -server older machines. Since I play about 90,000hands/yr., I'm right where I should be royalwise, but am net negative primarily due to bad streaks on the newer machines.

[olds442jetaway]

All good points. I think the high variance games have a lot to do with it too. Years ago, I only saw people playing job, deuces wild, or sometimes Joker Poker Kings. That could be one reason the money lasted longer in a dry spell. I still think the young people for the most part have a lack of interest in vp. There are a lot of them at the casino, but they seem to me more fascinated with the highly animated and interactive penny slots. They often play somewhere between 2 and 4 bucks a spin and seem to play in groups. Heavy drinking of course. I think the alcohol is getting a little out of hand at Mohegan Sun where I play. I also just found out they just let dozens of servers go. It was not about the payroll costs either. It was to save money on liquor. On my last 2 trips, I had to call the casino to send a server over to our area just to get a bottle of water and diet coke. We had waited nearly 2 hours and there were no servers in sight. They also extended the time between ordering alcohol drinks both on the floor and in the lounge. That part is probably a good idea. There have been many alcohol related accidents in the area over the last few years as well as a number of fights and the usual drunk type behavior in the casino especially on weekends.

[OTABILL]

I'm not sure about the high variance games. We have consistently played single line game king DDB well over 95% of the time and have seen the same trend. Paytables have pretty much remained constant. In fact, we usually seem to have the worst results, the better the paytable.

[shadowman]

This is not new. People have been saying the exact same thing since VP was invented.

[olds442jetaway]

I'm not sure about the high variance games. We have consistently played single line game king DDB well over 95% of the time and have seen the same trend. Paytables have pretty much remained constant. In fact, we usually seem to have the worst results, the better the paytable.

     I can agree there. I think though I lost so much more on the best paytables because I played the most on them and bet at a higher level. My best results last year and this while not great by any means have been on Double Down Stud which is a hard game to find at most casinos and the paytables almost always average between 95 and 98 percent.

[pooshfa]

Good commentary, thanks!

[notes1]

players complaining may not be new. players thinking the machines are rigged may not be new. and, players losing money is also not be new. '  but, there are some new things. reduced paytables at most properties is new. less folks playing per casino is new. players betting less than max coins may not be new, but has certainly increased dramatically. and, casinos located in areas outside of nevada, nj and miss, where state/local tax holds are much higher is also new.  while there are exceptions to every rule, when one combines all these changes, the only logical conclusion, is the for the average VP player, the cost of gambling has increased.  until everyone recognizes that casinos are like any other business. there goal is to stay alive and make money. the goal of those who regulate them is to keep them alive, preserve their jobs and take their cut.