Mathematically challenged

[DougJ]

I'm posting this in Recreational Play, rather than in Strategy, and if you read on, it will make sense.

So, attended one of Bob Dancer's VP classes recently at South Point. Here are a few observations:

*A handout is given before class starts, used for following along with the screen shots.

*Rules are presented one at a time, with examples of each rule.

*Bob will invite participation from class members by asking for the answers to example problems. (be aware of the extra-long presentation pointer)

*THE CASINOS HAVE NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT.

Even though the class was an introductory class for this particular game, it was very basic.
Example: when trying to decide which, if any, of the five cards to hold, Bob asked "how many cards will help you here?" (on the draw). Answers ranged from 5 thru 18. Really. 5 through 18 cards!!
What seems obvious is not so apparent.

I am not hyper-critical, nor am I well-versed in higher math (not used in my profession, except to calculate 1/3 of a number).
However, I was sincerely astounded by the answers given that defied simple math.

I am confident that no matter how many VP classes Bob has taught, or will teach in the future, the bottom line of the casino is not in jeopardy.
I think there have been a few posts elsewhere in this forum that suggest that Bob is doing the AP a disfavor by teaching classes, that somehow might impact a casino lowering its paytables.

IMHO, The casinos have nothing to worry about.

Lastly, it was amusing to hear a few people state that they can't bear to throw away certain hands, basic strategy be damned. These people go with their inner feelings.

Again, The casinos have nothing to worry about.

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=DougJ]*THE CASINOS HAVE NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT.[/quote]No truer words were ever spoken.  Players will always play the way they want regardless of what the experts or the math says.  Players don't go to the casino for a math lesson, they go filled with excitement and anticipation that they will hit a big jackpot.   The casinos are selling dreams and dreams are not made of .02% hands. Bob Dancer is a businessman.  His product is the knowledge he has gained from years of play and experience.  He sells his product to casinos as well as players.  He and the casinos know most of the players who attend his classes won't do what he teaches.  Playing VP by the math is tedious 90% of the time.  Playing by hunches and dreams is exciting 100% of the time.   I have no problem understanding math based VP strategy.   If you want the best long term return, it's the only way to go.   Personally, I find it boring and not that entertaining.  If someone chooses to play that way, great.  If someone chooses to play by some crazy scheme they believe in, who cares?I recognized early on that many players come to this forum to learn.   Some members wrongly interpreted any discussion of Recreational Strategy as teaching.  To prevent this, I asked for a separate Recreational Forum where any VP strategy no matter how crazy could be discussed openly.  After years of struggle it seems to be working as envisioned.   *THE CASINOS HAVE NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT.

[FAA]

Except competing casinos. Most markets are over saturated.

[DougJ]

My posting in this section of the forum was precisely for the reason FloridaPhil states: who cares how anyone chooses to play, because it's their money. If someone chooses to interpret their strategy as "teaching" and is offended by this, too bad.
Yes, Bob Dancer is a buisness man, that's why his materials are there for sale at his classes. Though, it was rather funny that he had no idea if his books were available as "e-books" when specifically asked that question by a audience member.
I authored a book that was published by McGraw-Hill Higher Education, and I can assure you as a "business man" that I verify each and every royalty statement.
Just sayin . . .

[FloridaPhil]

Mr. Dancer (pseudonym) is an interesting entity.  When we speak his chosen name, we are not referring to the person.  He created this persona apart from the real person he is in real life.  I don't know the real person.  All I know is the spoken and written voice associated with the name.   As a public figure, fictional or real, when you put yourself out there as an expert your words and theories are open to comment.  It comes with the territory.Some members of this forum believe I am fixated on him for some
reason.   As a VP player, how could you not be?   He is the spokesperson
for VP strategy and the most visible and vocal expert we have.  It is
difficult to have any discussion about VP without mentioning his name.Personally, I don't think Mr. Dancer is living high off his book sales
and VP classes alone.  I do believe he uses these profits as cash flow to help
fund his play.  I know I would.   If I was to wager a guess and that's
all it would be, I suspect he had outside money before he started playing VP.    It
would be hard for me to believe he would have embarked on a career as a
professional gambler without some family money to back him up.  Not that it matters as he has earned success on his own despite making a very challenging career choice.My biggest skepticism has always been the veiled promise that you can beat the casinos through strategy and skill alone.  As long as players realize gambling, no matter who does it or how it's done, involves risk... no harm is done.  VP is a game of chance.  The fact that some players will win and others will lose does not change this reality.  There is no strategy or learned skill that can guarantee jackpots will or will not appear for you today or ever.   Mr. Dancer knows this better than anyone.Gambling is speculative in nature and
involves substantial risk of loss.  Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results.  There is no guarantee that strategies, indicators, or signals will result in profits or that they
will not result in losses. All gamblers are advised to fully understand
all risks associated with any kind of gambling they choose to do.

[DougJ]

Now that attention is focused on the shooter, the media is interviewing some of these "public figures" such as Shackleford (not Granoff).
In one instance, Shackleford says that 100 lousy VP players subsidize one "skilled player." There are "so many bad players."
As I said, casinos have nothing to worry about, which is why South Point continues to host (and pay) VP classes.
Interesting observation also, that now makes more sense today, Dancer and South Point request class audience members provide their names AND South Point Players' Club Card numbers. Now, consider this, why in the world should a player provide their card number to attend a "free" class?

[FloridaPhil]

Anyone who would take the time to attend a VP class is probably at least a semi serious player.   My bet is South Point uses this list in their marketing or sells the list to someone who will.   Today's world of information is full of cross referenced data bases on everything you buy or do.   They probably know the brand of underwear you wear along with how many coins you play.Experts that sell strategies love to say everyone who doesn't use their strategy is paying their bills.   Personally, it doesn't bother me one bit if these guys think I am a bad player.  I'm not playing with Dancer or Shackleford's money.  I'm playing to make myself happy and I'm doing just fine.  For all we know, the shooter was an AP.Whatever he was, it's a stretch to think he did what he did because he was having a bad run of VP.  

[DougJ]

Anyone who would take the time to attend a VP class is probably at least a semi serious player.   My bet is South Point uses this list in their marketing or sells the list to someone who will.   Today's world of information is full of cross referenced data bases on everything you buy or do.   They probably know the brand of underwear you wear along with how many coins you play.Experts that sell strategies love to say everyone who doesn't use their strategy is paying their bills.   Personally, it doesn't bother me one bit if these guys think I am a bad player.  I'm not playing with Dancer or Shackleford's money.  I'm playing to make myself happy and I'm doing just fine.  For all we know, the shooter was an AP.Whatever he was, it's a stretch to think he did what he did because he was having a bad run of VP.  




Well, I attended a VP class out of curiosity, not because I deem myself a semi serious player, and I certainly don't pretend to be an AP, like some posters label themselves on these forums. Like you, I don't care about their long noses.
I'm glad I went to the class, and as I noted in my first post, the wild answers that defied basic math told me a lot about why these classes are promoted at South Point for so, so long.
As to why players' names and card numbers were written down, that's another tale. It's not S.P. marketing.

[FloridaPhil]

I think attending a VP class is a good thing as long as you don't get caught up in the hype, clean out your bank account and rush out expecting to be the next AP.   Math based VP strategy promotes many real and useful principles.  It is advantageous to seek out the best games and using computer generated card strategy is unquestionably the best choice.  What math strategy does not address is the randomness of the RNG as it relates to the limited playing lifespan of a player.  For example, math tells us a royal flush happens in JB approximately once in 40,000 hands.  It also says there is a good chance it won't happen on time.  What if you are betting $125 a hand and your $100,000 royal happened when you went to the bathroom?   That's a funny example, but it illustrates the fact that VP math is on paper and you are playing for real.  Would you risk hundreds of thousands of your dollars on a chance you may never see a royal?  Not this guy...

[onemoretry]

What if you are betting $125 a hand and your $100,000 royal happened when you went to the bathroom?  
You're playing by remote control?