A SERIOUS, MEANINGFUL THREAD

[BillyJoe]

   My question to DaBurglar is a simple one even though its a two part question: how long has Atlantic City been a vacation and entertainment destination and when was gambling first legalized in Atlantic City?

My point goes back to my earlier comment about Atlantic City first hitting rock bottom before returning like a Phoenix?

How much did the city of Detroit shrink in order to start a turn around? Thus was a hard choice made for the betterment of the entire city and maybe other cities and towns, Chicago and Atlantic City included, could learn something from Detroit.
If I am not mistaken, Detroit is bankrupt, with very high unemployment.

[Tedlark]

  That is not the most current information WilliamJoseph.

[BillyJoe]

  That is not the most current information WilliamJoseph.
Perhaps, but per a WSJ article in June/2014...

" Detroit currently has the highest unemployment rate of the 50 largest cities in the U.S., at more than three times the national average for May, which was 6.3%. The unemployment rate there hovers at 23%, six percentage points ahead of the nearest on the list — Oakland City, Calif., at 16.9%, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. "

With regard to the Detroit bankruptcy exit, an April/2014 article says..

" Multiple lawsuits have been filed by creditors objecting to the settlement terms offered by Orr in the so-called “plan of adjustment” submitted to the court — even though Judge Rhodes has yet to accept that plan. An updated version of that plan was scheduled to be submitted to the court."

[DaBurglar]

Gambling was legalized in AC in the mid 1970s, and the first casino (RESORTS owned by Merv Griffin) opened in 1978....and in quick succession, a bunch more followed over the next several years.About  Detroit.......I am afraid that Billyjoe is 100% correct. the casinos have not had the beneficial impact they were initially hoping they would yield (although, Billyjoe, can you provide a link or address for that article you cited?)Detroit is a complete and utter mess and has been for a very long time, and in fact, Detroit is one of MANY cities who now stand out as a Cautionary tale about the so-called "BENEFICIAL impact casinos have on cities in economic distress."    It is now recognized that the DOGMA long repeated by the casino industry, that casinos yield economic growth and prosperity to the surrounding communities, is a bunch of self-serving hogwash.We all know the sad litany of Detroit's descent into economic and social oblivion....when the Auto industry took it on the chin in the 1980s, Detroit suffered crippling blows to its economy and infrastructure, and was desperate for a way out......for  the next couple decades (give or take), they searched and searched, and were not very successful, for something to replace the auto industry and its many supporting industries and subcontractors....in fact they are still searching and have never stopped.But somewhere along the way  (I myself am not certain as to what the exact date is or was)  CASINOS were touted as a way to revitalize Detroit's horrible urban scene, remove the blight of crime and gangs and drugs, and as a way to generate LOTS and LOTS of needed tax revenue to support other infrastructure and social projects which would, in turn, help lift Detroit up out of the hole even more quickly, thus creating a type of synergistic effect.  Casinos were to be the new economic and social "power generator" from which other sources of recovery would spring, and on and on and on.....Alas, it totally did not work out that way.......and now Detroit, along with places like the Gulf Coast; numerous cities and locales throughout the midwest and along the mississippi river; as well as tribal areas around the nation, are testament that Casinos ARE NOT the big shot in the arm that economies need to get rolling once again.    Steve Wynn himself summed it up best, very recently in fact, in testimony he gave to the Massachusetts Gaming commission as my state goes through the process of perhaps implementing 3 different casinos:  (quote is not word for word but sums up what he said)  "Make no mistake.....when either myself, or someone else, opens a casino in your community, we are not doing this to help you local economy.   And we certainly are NOT looking to have the customers who come to OUR casinos spend ANY of their dollars outside our casinos....if that in fact happens, it is NOT by our design.  We are like any other competitive business.....we want our customers to do ALL their spending in OUR establishments, not share the wealth, so-to-speak."I do not have any MORE data to support what Billyjoe has already pointed out, but that WSJ article he cited pretty much nails it....and you cannot get any more "current" than the date of the article (June of 2014 according to Billyjoe), so I am not certain what Tedlark's objection about "current information" is based upon, but it is clear the original notion that DETROIT is some type of positive role model or success story that Atlantic City needs to emulate is totally BUNK.Edited to add:  Detroit's mess is the cumulative result of 25-30 years of a multitude of factors and events and trends....plus, you also must add in CORRUPTION as well.   The (relatively recent) behavior on the part of many of Detroit's leaders (mayor, state and city representatives, et al)  over the years has MAGNIFIED many of the forces and events that have plagued the city.   It is well known that even in the BEST of times, a otherwise prosperous and vibrant city can be knocked down and brought to its knees by the actions of one or a few of its people in power!   And a history and penchant for corruption make it EXTREMELY difficult to recover or even mount a recovery effort!

[DaBurglar]

galeygoo,remember now,all these comments are coming from a person who claims to have 2 harvard degrees.i am above his comments so nothing he says bothers me anymore.Doris, I am NOT trying to bother you!!!!  jeezus......by displaying your hatred of me you are only hurting yourself, dont you understand that?I was actually complimenting you regarding your statement about young people and clubs having very little impact on gambling revenue!    it was not "SNOTTY", as galeygoo tried to portray it.......You (doris) very keenly observed (as I myself also have observed) that on a typical Saturday Night in Atlantic City in any typical CLUB in any typical Casino, most of the young (under 30) people dancing and drinking are NOT following that up with extended sessions of slot play or table games.....no, instead they all either crash in a room that one of them gets, or they walk off their Alcohol Buzz on the Boardwalk until they can drive home.   This is vastly different than what you see in Vegas or elsewhere.AND FOR THE RECORD, DORIS:   I graduated from Harvard with a Bachelor's degree, with a Dual  (i.e. double) Major, one in Economics, and the other in Government.   I did NOT graduate with TWO (2) degrees!!!   yeeeeshEdited to add:  This means that BILLYJOE is FAR MORE "educated" than I am....since he has a MBA (along with whatever other laurels he has accumulated.)     That should make you feel better.

[royal flush]

it would be constructive if the posts were not insulting of folks with opposing views. if posts were kept to games good paytables, good promos, good food, good shows-entertainment and we all would have better results

[Tedlark]

DaBurglar thank you for your post about Detroit, I believe the Gettysburg Address was shorter.

You failed to answer my two part question though and when I mentioned the city of Detroit it had nothing to do with gambling but rather the city as a whole.

The most recent information about Detroit would include an interview with the Governor of Michigan and what's going n with Detroit. I did not raise an objection I merely commented that there was more current information available about Detroit than an almost 4 week old article.

Yeeeesh.

[DaBurglar]

DaBurglar thank you for your post about Detroit, I believe the Gettysburg Address was shorter.

You failed to answer my two part question though and when I mentioned the city of Detroit it had nothing to do with gambling but rather the city as a whole.

The most recent information about Detroit would include an interview with the Governor of Michigan and what's going n with Detroit. I did not raise an objection I merely commented that there was more current information available about Detroit than an almost 4 week old article.

Yeeeesh.well I answered at least one part of your "SINGLE -TWO part question", and that was WHEN gambling was actually legalized in AC (I said in my gettysburg address that 1978 was when the first casino opened, so obviously the "legalization" of gaming took place sometime before that in the mid 1970s)    But I have (or had) a feeling you were not asking that out of curiosity, it seems or sounded more like a test, as if you already know the answer and wanted to see if I know it, because you could have just looked the answer(s) up yourself.But the other part of your question, "how long has AC been a entertainment destination?"   My answer:  A LONG LONG time......going back to the American Civil war, the Army built a large number of Hotel-Size Hospitals and Dormitories to house THOUSANDS of wounded and shell shocked soldiers (from BOTH SIDES) until the war and its aftermath subsided in late 1865 (it was believed housing soldiers near the ocean was THERAPEUTIC in nature...fresh air, solitude, peace and quiet etc.   But in reality another big reason was to keep the soldiers out of sight with all their hideous, frightening, demoralizing  wounds...having these guys in and around Philadelphia,  NYC and Baltimore would be bad for the war effort.)Anyway, after the war when all the soldiers went home ( a few stayed), those Hospitals and huge kitchens and buildings formed the basis and beginnings for much of what followed: hotels, restaurants and the boardwalk itself (which orignally was built to allow soldiers on crutches and wheelchairs to enjoy the beach)....and since the army obviously built roads and (especially) a railroad to get everyone and everything needed to and fro, the infrastructure was there to allow the RESORT TOWN to spring up and flourish.  So it was during the 1870s  that AC became america's playground;  It grew and grew and flourished, as many people from all the nearby big cities flocked to AC in the SUMMERs,  and that is why, as depicted in Boardwalk Empire during the 1920s, AC hit its first PEAK as the nation's first capital of excess and vice and pleasure (although San Francisco on the west coast had the same appeal.)The Depression changed all that.  AC, like the rest of urban and suburban america, suffered tremendously.    After World War two, AC experienced ebb and flow until the early 1960s when, with much of america now using CARS to travel everywhere and anywhere, and without a sophisticated HIGHWAY system in that part of the state just yet,  AC just stagnated until around 1971 or thereabouts when the state of New Jersey, looking for ways to generate cash to deal with the issues of being so densely populated, looked to gambling.    They identified AC as the place to build casinos, invested in the Highways to get there and voila!  AC took off and prospered greatly from 1978 through 2001  .......     but as some of you already pointed out, AC did not (or maybe could not) reinvest much of that prosperity into itself and keep up with a changing world...no doubt the state of NEW JERSEY itself is also to blame for AC's current doldrums, because they kept blowing the money generated by AC gambling on wasteful spending and projects in Northern New Jersey (aka "New York City's sucker")   ... obviously they did not use much of that money to keep AC looking good.Look, if you people (beside's Tedlark, he'd gripe about WHATEVER  I write no matter the length) do not like reading my lengthy posts, then dont.   I have a lot to say and I do not like being incomplete or leaving things uncovered.  I am not trying to prove anything, I just want to make a well covered and interesting post.

[DaBurglar]

Ted, you wrote the following:"How much did the city of Detroit shrink in order to start a turn around?
Thus was a hard choice made for the betterment of the entire city and
maybe other cities and towns, Chicago and Atlantic City included, could
learn something from Detroit."And then you said the following after Billyjoe, and myself, pointed out the inaccuracy  to say that DETROIT has turned itself around and/or should be the role model for any city, least of all Chicago or AC..... The most recent information about Detroit would include an interview with the Governor of Michigan and what's going n with Detroit. I did not raise an objection I merely commented that there was more current information available about Detroit than an almost 4 week old article.

Yeeeesh. it is highly UNLIKELY that the city of Detroit has indergone a dramatic turnaround in the last 27 days (allow one day to circulate the WSJ and for the Governor to issue a reply or rebuttal),  I will give you a chance to cite and present this "MORE CURRENT INFORMATION than a 4 week old article in the WSJ" that you reference....So please, where (or what) is this more current info?   If the governor has declared Detroit to be healthy, as you imply, then great.....where did he say that?

[Tedlark]

I did not say that Detroit was healthy. I do know that thousands of jobs have returned to Detroit; real estate is again being bought in Detroit; there are several large construction projects currently bring undertaken in Detroit and things are looking up.

But because you brought up the Detroit casinos, how many of those have filed for bankruptcy or closed?

I did find many of your talking points about Atlantic City in a couple Bloomburg News articles. Well except for the Civil War stuff of course. Do you ever have an original thought?