The myth of playing 5 coins in video poker.

[onemoretry]

I play at Seneca Niagara Casino on a weekly (or more) basis, strictly Bonus Poker.
Do you play the multiline machines, the 3/5 play 50c or the $1 ones, or do you stick to single line?

[billryan]

Although I'm new to this forum I've been a member of VideoPoker.com for over 5 years and have played video poker for over 10. I've played over 3 million hands and have kept tight records for the past 8 years. A long time ago I did the math regarding betting max versus betting 1 coin.

First, I always bet max, the benefits greatly exceed the costs versus betting 1 coin. Second, the benefits of betting 5 versus 1 coin will be highly dependent on the comps you receive from the casino you regularly play at. I play at Seneca Niagara Casino on a weekly (or more) basis, strictly Bonus Poker.

I can't absolutely disagree with the conclusions of the initial poster. I think the mistake many of his critics are making is the assumption that the difference in the returns is about 2% (the royal difference). What the critics don't seem to account for is that "perfect strategy" is different when betting less than max. The most obvious differences are how to play a three card Royal. With max bet you almost always go for the royal. If betting less than max, you would hold a fourth suited card (go for the flush), a fourth card that gives you a chance for a straight, or a low pair. This changes the perfect play return when betting 1 coin to 97.932%, and not 97.18, as it seems everyone is assuming. So the difference in the return is closer to 1.2% and not 2%.

Here are the calculations I use for "my" casino, using a total bet of 500k if max, 100k if 1 coin:

Bet                        500K      100k
Return                     99.17%    97.932%
Loss(before free play)     $4150      $2068
Free Play                    570        275
Points to Free Play       1428.57    163.26
Loss before comps        2151.43    1629.73
Unlimited food/drink        yes       no
(two people)
Hotel Stays                 yes       no
Gift Cards                  yes       no
Gifts                      yes       no

Bottom line is that (at my casino with my bet amount) my initial loss on max bet is about $500 more than a 1 coin bet. However, I believe that the value of the comps, especially unlimited food/drink for 2 (something I easily take advantage of since I live only 15 minutes away) greatly exceed any savings from betting 1 coin. I would calculate that value to be easily $3000 annually (I won't go through the calculations).

Personally, I don't see the enjoyment or the benefit of a



Apple's and oranges.
Video poker is measured by coin in, not hands played, hours played or drinks consumed. You would be much better served play 100 max coin hands an hour than 500 single coin ones.

[ajs1956]

"Apple's and oranges.
Video poker is measured by coin in, not hands played, hours played or drinks consumed. You would be much better served play 100 max coin hands an hour than 500 single coin ones."

I'm not sure if that's correct.

I think the poster's point, and I guess mine, is that no matter how many hands you play, and it could be many-millions, you would always lose more betting max than betting one. It's not dollars in (that's the myth) because the number of hands you can possibly play is finite. So for all the hands you have ever played, your loss would be less betting 1 than max (on a negative return game). You can't change that result. Only comps, free-play, or a game that pays 100% or more changes that. The casinos know that, that's why higher denomination games (both slots and video poker), usually have higher percentage returns.

[billryan]

From the Learn section at the top of the page.
Now if you think you know more than the experts that run this site, or that they have some nefarious reason to mislead you, then I suggest you ignore them.


Dos and Don'ts
Here are some important tips to help optimize your video poker playing experience and your video poker income.
DO Shop the paytables
DO Bet Max Coins
DON'T play over your head
DO Watch your alcohol intake
DO Sign up for the slot club
DO Learn how to play your favorite games
DON'T play somewhere the buttons are
sticky or don't work
DON'T play next to a loud or bothersome drunk
 
DO Shop the paytables
Video poker is the ONLY game where the casino actually tells you the "price", or the exact theoretical payback. Learn to recognize the best game returns, which are prominently displayed on the game's glass or in the game's help screens and get the most for your gambling dollar. Then practice your favorite games at home until you're ready to have a profitable trip to your favorite local casino, or even VEGAS!
top
DO Bet Max Coins
Always bet the max. It is only at 5 coins bet that your Royal Flush and other jackpots get 'bonused' or pay top dollar. And isn't getting paid top dollar what we want? If you can't afford a max bet at a specific denomination, then find a lower denomination machine and play IT at max bet. For example, DO NOT play a dollar game, one coin at a time. Go and play a quarter game at $1.25 cents per time. You'll make more money, play longer and earn more comps.
top
DON'T play over your head
Set a budget for your play session. Leave when you meet it. Set a budget for your winnings, too. Leave when you meet that. Discipline is THE key to a common sense approach to gaming. DO NOT CHASE THE MONEY. DO NOT DOUBLE UP TO CATCH UP. These are two sure-fire ways of getting in a hole. And if you believe gambling is a problem for you, a friend or family member, please contact National Council on Problem Gambling (www.ncpgambling.org)
top
DO Watch your alcohol intake
Drunks and even tipsy people often make bad decisions. This is expecially true when playing video poker as inebriated players often make strategy mistakes or just plain miss card combinations they should keep. Serious video poker players who want to fully exploit their casino visit don't get out-of-hand with their drinking. Finally, one's willpower is lessened by alcohol and you might find yourself playing more than you should, or more than you planned for. Play to your budget and do it soberly.
top
DO Sign up for the slot club
This is a must. Why? Well, the most obvious reason is that you get "complimentary" points for your play which can be used for comps and sometimes you just get offers in the mail. You won't without a card. Another very important reason is just in case you get taxable winnings, which are any jackpots in excess of $1,199.00. The casino will keep some records for you so you know what to report to the IRS and your win/loss. Remember, they can only tell you about play while using a player tracking card.
top
DO Learn how to play your favorite games
Other forms of casino gambling all rely on luck. You are ahead of the curve because you've already picked a game where the strategy for winning, or getting the most for your gambling dollar, is known. Not only known, but easily available. There are books, strategy cards and actual courses taught by pros like Bob Dancer (www.bobdancer.com) and great software to use and learn at home on your computer. Practice makes perfect, or at least much better. You practice for softball, for bowling, for most leisure activities... why not video poker? This game, like blackjack with the right rules, can be beaten.
top
DON'T play somewhere the buttons are sticky or don't work
One sure-fire way to have a really crummy, unpleasant session is to play a machine where the buttons don't work. When irritated or distracted, you won't play perfectly and won't make as much money as you would playing somewhere else. Don't even play even if it is the only available machine. You will miss holding the right cards, get frustrated and likely not enjoy your session. A better working machine will be available soon.
top
DON'T play next to a loud or bothersome drunk
Not only will they distract you from playing perfectly, they'll ruin your fun. Don't do it! Walk away or come back later.
top

I'm not sure how this is even debatable. If you want to practice voodoo, at least have the courtesy to go down to Florida Phils sub-forum and you guys can have a good old time laffing about how you've outsmarted the so called experts and how playing the game is much more important than winning.
 

[ajs1956]

Bill,

Thank you for the advice.

I think's it's debatable because the math supports it. Can you show me where my math is wrong? I am always willing to be corrected. I do make mistakes.

Also,I think that most "experts" will tell you, as I have stated in my previous posts, that the difference maker are the comps. That is especially true in negative return games which most of us are stuck playing. The comps give me a distinct advantage in playing max over 1 coin. At least they keep me well fed.

Honestly, I enjoy the debates and don't mind when someone disagrees with me. But I think it's important to be open to, and respectful of, other's viewpoints if you want an effective discourse.

Finally, I should note that if you go up to 2, 3, or 4 coins, you would definitely lose less by betting max.

[ajs1956]

Onemoretry:

I stick to .50 single line. It allows me to comfortably reach the annual points I target.

[markinca]

Finally, I should note that if you go up to 2, 3, or 4 coins, you would definitely lose less by betting max.

Wait, wait, wait wait..... what???

So your contention is that between 1 coin and max coin, 1 coin is the best choice, but when betting 2-4 coins on the exact same paytable as 1 coin, betting max is a better choice?

Playing 2 coins is _literally_ identical EV-wise to 2 1-coin hands.

[billryan]

That is not my advice, that is from the Do's and Don't at the top of every page.
It's already been shown several times, but once again. Playing full coin JOB returns 99.54. Using your figure that single coin with your strategy pays 97.8, just do the math.
Plug in $100,000 coin in.
Plug in $1,000,0000 coin in.
Hell, plug $100 coin in.
What you will see is the more money you pout into the machine the bigger the gap with Max coins paying more than anything else.
Once more- number of hands played doesn't matter, number of hours played doesn't matter. All that matters is coin in.
If you chose to believe that that is a myth, why bother believing anything the experts teach? Why not just go for a Royal every hand. Either the experts are right or they are wrong.
Of course, when confronted with math, some people say- I'm rich and old and just out for fun so things like math don't matter. Perhaps you,to, are rich and want to lose money. That's okay. Just don't try to show your inferior strategy is somehow better.
comps, fee play and free rolls are very important but math is math and cant be denied. Math doesn't change casino to casino.

[ajs1956]

"So your contention is that between 1 coin and max coin, 1 coin is the best choice, but when betting 2-4 coins on the exact same paytable as 1 coin, betting max is a better choice?

Playing 2 coins is _literally_ identical EV-wise to 2 1-coin hands."

As your bet increases your loss increases, even at the same return. That is why you lose less with 1 bet than 5. The increase in the amount bet decreases and eliminates that advantage as you bet more than 1.

And I've never said that 1 is the best choice. I've always said that 5 is the best choice. The more you bet the more comps, free play, etc you should get always giving max bet a significant advantage. I've said this in every post, not too sure why nobody reads it.

[markinca]

"So your contention is that between 1 coin and max coin, 1 coin is the best choice, but when betting 2-4 coins on the exact same paytable as 1 coin, betting max is a better choice?

Playing 2 coins is _literally_ identical EV-wise to 2 1-coin hands."

As your bet increases your loss increases, even at the same return. That is why you lose less with 1 bet than 5. The increase in the amount bet decreases and eliminates that advantage as you bet more than 1.

And I've never said that 1 is the best choice. I've always said that 5 is the best choice. The more you bet the more comps, free play, etc you should get always giving max bet a significant advantage. I've said this in every post, not too sure why nobody reads it.

If simply losing less money per unit of time is the most important thing for you, then just play max-coins at a rate 5x slower than your single-coin play. Now you have the same exposure AND you'll lose less per hour.