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i've played 9/6 job for hours before though and not won much.
Why would you expect to win? 9/6 JOB is a negative expectation game. The casino edge is small and good CB, etc. could turn it positive, but without considering those add-ons you should expect to lose over time.
RNG Experiment
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scorpio2
- VP Veteran
- Posts: 558
- Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:17 am
the vp machines are programmed by the casinos to give back 90-99% over a period of the machines life.the rng determines when and who to give wins ,and or losses to.if it gives a big win,then over time it will take that back.what i don't like is a machine will win and then sometimes be replaced by a newer tighter machine.
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cddenver
- Video Poker Master
- Posts: 2269
- Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2007 9:54 pm
the vp machines are programmed by the casinos to give back 90-99% over a period of the machines life.the rng determines when and who to give wins ,and or losses to.if it gives a big win,then over time it will take that back.what i don't like is a machine will win and then sometimes be replaced by a newer tighter machine.
With negative return games more money is going to go in the machines over time than comes out; that's all there is to it. Along the way you'll get all sorts of interesting good runs and bad runs that have nothing to do with any special programming; you'd see the same thing if you were to play a "live" version of VP at a table with a dealer. A newer machine will only be tighter if the paytables on it are lower than the older machine it replaces.
Adding additional programming to reduce the return further is not only illegal, it's unnecessary since casinos have the perfectly legal option of lowering the paytables. Anyone who's played for a few years can testify that over time there's been a general reduction in paytables for their fave games. Reducing paytables wouldn't be needed if casinos are altering programming regularly to increase their take. Why do both?
If special programming is being used to make machines tight, it seems to me that it would be smarter for the casinos to keep paytables high in order to lure more players in to play.
Of course, this post could just be more drivel from me.
With negative return games more money is going to go in the machines over time than comes out; that's all there is to it. Along the way you'll get all sorts of interesting good runs and bad runs that have nothing to do with any special programming; you'd see the same thing if you were to play a "live" version of VP at a table with a dealer. A newer machine will only be tighter if the paytables on it are lower than the older machine it replaces.
Adding additional programming to reduce the return further is not only illegal, it's unnecessary since casinos have the perfectly legal option of lowering the paytables. Anyone who's played for a few years can testify that over time there's been a general reduction in paytables for their fave games. Reducing paytables wouldn't be needed if casinos are altering programming regularly to increase their take. Why do both?
If special programming is being used to make machines tight, it seems to me that it would be smarter for the casinos to keep paytables high in order to lure more players in to play.
Of course, this post could just be more drivel from me.
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scorpio2
- VP Veteran
- Posts: 558
- Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:17 am
yes,if i sit down and put in a 20 and it hits the rf jackpot,then i think,either this machine has just lost a lot,or it will now.they have to be programmed or they would hit all the time,casinos wouldn't like that.over the life of a machine it could lose for the first 10 years,then be replaced.if the life of a machine in vp is 10 years or longer.
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oej719
- Video Poker Master
- Posts: 1777
- Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:46 pm
Is drivel like a cow pie or bs? Am I on the right track here? What would our mentor call all this talk of secondary programming?
Hot cycles? Patterns?
Back to my yoga now. Peace to all.
Hot cycles? Patterns?
Back to my yoga now. Peace to all.
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shadowman
- Video Poker Master
- Posts: 3587
- Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:42 pm
yes,if i sit down and put in a 20 and it hits the rf jackpot,then i think,either this machine has just lost a lot,or it will now.they have to be programmed or they would hit all the time,casinos wouldn't like that.over the life of a machine it could lose for the first 10 years,then be replaced.if the life of a machine in vp is 10 years or longer.
Your thinking has clearly been influenced by others who don't understand how a VP machines operates. Programming machines is illegal in most (if not all) states. You clearly don't have a feeling for randomness. There is no need for any special programming as CD mentioned above.
How do I know? I've written my own programs and they exhibit the EXACT same behavior as the machines in casinos. I did not "program" in anything other then a pure random generation of cards. That is all it takes. If you don't believe that or cannot accept this then I wonder why you would ever gamble. I wouldn't.
Let's look at one of your statements: "they have to be programmed or they would hit all the time,casinos wouldn't like that" ... what makes you think they would hit all the time? If they are random they will "hit" at whatever probability a particular combination of cards has. I really suggest you sit down and flip a coin for awhile. Maybe this will give you a feel for randomness. Make sure you record your results for at least a hundred flips.
Your thinking has clearly been influenced by others who don't understand how a VP machines operates. Programming machines is illegal in most (if not all) states. You clearly don't have a feeling for randomness. There is no need for any special programming as CD mentioned above.
How do I know? I've written my own programs and they exhibit the EXACT same behavior as the machines in casinos. I did not "program" in anything other then a pure random generation of cards. That is all it takes. If you don't believe that or cannot accept this then I wonder why you would ever gamble. I wouldn't.
Let's look at one of your statements: "they have to be programmed or they would hit all the time,casinos wouldn't like that" ... what makes you think they would hit all the time? If they are random they will "hit" at whatever probability a particular combination of cards has. I really suggest you sit down and flip a coin for awhile. Maybe this will give you a feel for randomness. Make sure you record your results for at least a hundred flips.
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damule
- VP Veteran
- Posts: 551
- Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2008 4:59 pm
In a hundred flips of a coin the variance will be greater than after a thousand flips of a coin which will be greater than 100,000 flips of a coin and so on...the RNG in a video poker machine works the same way. The more you play, the closer to the expected return you will receive based on the skill level of your play.
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shadowman
- Video Poker Master
- Posts: 3587
- Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:42 pm
Right you are, Mule. The exercise of flipping a coin leads to often unexpected results. Like say, 5 or 6 consectutive heads (or tails). This doesn't seem right to people who have a different understanding of what random means.
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cddenver
- Video Poker Master
- Posts: 2269
- Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2007 9:54 pm
yes,if i sit down and put in a 20 and it hits the rf jackpot,then i think,either this machine has just lost a lot,or it will now.they have to be programmed or they would hit all the time,casinos wouldn't like that.over the life of a machine it could lose for the first 10 years,then be replaced.if the life of a machine in vp is 10 years or longer.
The casinos enjoy seeing players hit nice jackpots, even though it causes them to lose money to a player that day. They don't mind that at all! They take a longer term view, and know that the player will come back again...and again...and again. Doesn't take much in the way of losing sessions before a quarters player has played that $1,000 back in, and then some.
The negative returns we write about are long term numbers, and say nothing about what can happen in individual sessions, good or bad. You mention a scenario where you hit a RF right off the bat - that certainly happens, but remember that every RF you hit in less than the average amount of play between RFs (about 40K hands) will be offset at some point by RFs that take longer than 40K hands. Your next RF might take 80K hands to get, giving you a 40K average for those two RFs. My first ever RF took two years to get and didn't come near to covering my losses before then.
The casinos enjoy seeing players hit nice jackpots, even though it causes them to lose money to a player that day. They don't mind that at all! They take a longer term view, and know that the player will come back again...and again...and again. Doesn't take much in the way of losing sessions before a quarters player has played that $1,000 back in, and then some.
The negative returns we write about are long term numbers, and say nothing about what can happen in individual sessions, good or bad. You mention a scenario where you hit a RF right off the bat - that certainly happens, but remember that every RF you hit in less than the average amount of play between RFs (about 40K hands) will be offset at some point by RFs that take longer than 40K hands. Your next RF might take 80K hands to get, giving you a 40K average for those two RFs. My first ever RF took two years to get and didn't come near to covering my losses before then.
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cddenver
- Video Poker Master
- Posts: 2269
- Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2007 9:54 pm
Right you are, Mule. The exercise of flipping a coin leads to often unexpected results. Like say, 5 or 6 consectutive heads (or tails). This doesn't seem right to people who have a different understanding of what random means.
Yes, flipping a coin enough times to get 50% heads and 50% tails doesn't mean that if you looked at the actual flips you'd see "H T H T H T H T", etc. You'd have runs of heads and runs of tails that would average out to the long term numbers. Same thinking for VP when we talk about averages for RF's, Aces, quads in general, etc.
I think I'm on the verge of a VP epiphany.
Yes, flipping a coin enough times to get 50% heads and 50% tails doesn't mean that if you looked at the actual flips you'd see "H T H T H T H T", etc. You'd have runs of heads and runs of tails that would average out to the long term numbers. Same thinking for VP when we talk about averages for RF's, Aces, quads in general, etc.
I think I'm on the verge of a VP epiphany.
