An open offer to Fa La La La La.... La la la la

[oej719]

I did not know you had a sister eduardo. Would you set me up? How many tacos can she eat in a single sitting?
My best is 6.

[pokeherguy]

He tossed a couple of things my way but I'll admit it was nothing like the other stuff that was going on. I just never understood what the big deal was from both sides of the argument. I been playing for years and heard both sides of the argument and I'm still in the middle. The only proof anybody can offer is "why would they". That argument can picked apart in this day and time.

[shadowman]

There were several separate fights going on all at once. The "why would they" cheat fight was just one of many.
 
That one was real simple to me. You have IGT, a company listed on the NYSE, that builds 90% of the VP machines. It goes beyond all reason to think they would risk their entire business by building machines that did not adhere to the state regulations which they promise to follow when they sign licenses to sell VP equipment.

 
Not only that, but the machines are actually tested to see if they do meet these regulations in many states. So, the states must also be complicit in cheating it's own citizens.
 
So, what should I believe? That some huge conspiracy exists to cheat the VP players of the world or that someone has their own agenda when spreading claims of machine non-randomness? I don't know about anyone else, bit that's not too tough to for me figure out.

[EDC1977]

shadow, I don't see how anyone can refute that since the NGC has very specific language in their rules and regs on machine randomness. It goes without saying that there is much too much at stake to break the law to try and gain such a miniscule edge when most players don't follow "perfect play" methods. The manufacturer, the casino, the politicians and the slot route operator would all suffer from such a foolish move. Just as the chips are installed to deal "randomly" from a deck once the deal/draw button is hit, they are also tested "randomly" to make sure there is no hanky panky involved. Over 100% payback doesn't guarantee a winning session every time and that alone should prove the machine is fairly dealing "random" as the next person might hit two biggies in a row. No predictions, no guarantees!

[shadowman]

There was a time years ago when I had my doubts. However, rather than believing some of the myths out there, I decided to check into the facts. I found the Nevada Gaming Commission (NGC) regulations. I found the Indian compact in my home state. I checked into the regulations and found out for myself what they contained. I also checked into exactly how randomness affects the games.
 
Now I know beyond any doubt. It was more difficult when I did this 12+ years ago than it would be today for anyone who has any doubts.
 
There isn't any good reason for an interested party to believe the nonsense about non-randomness. The facts are all available to everyone.

[cddenver]

There were several separate fights going on all at once. The "why would they" cheat fight was just one of many.
 
Another fight was over the "How?" as well as the "Why?".  To keep the rigging secret, you'd want as few people in on it as possible.  For something as widespread as this there's just too many people who'd need to keep quiet.  You'd need - 50 people?  100?  More?   How many people does it take before any secret is spilled?  Multiply that number for each state where the rigging is being done, since every state has its own staff of inspectors. 
 
Is the rigging being done by IGT, and "snuck" through the NGC's testing and approval process?  In a previous discussion I posted a link to information on the NGC site that describes the testing and approval process for anything that goes inside a gaming machine.  That process takes quite a while, and there's a lot of people involved.  The proponent of the "flipping" theory has referred to rigging on single play machines, but by implication it would also be happening on 3-play, 5-play, 10-play, single game, multigame, etc., all of which have their own software versions that go through an approval process.  I'm sure that IGT does testing in-house before turning anything over to regulators, so there's even more people involved.
 
For obvious reasons, casino managers would have to follow a different process of actually installing rigged game chips in machines than the process that's followed for approved game chips.  So all of the casino employees involved in that process would know something funny was going on, even if they weren't in on the specifics.  I know that state regulators can have game chips (or entire machines) removed from casinos and sent to their own test facilities, or to contracted companies.  That's been done here in CO.  If you were a casino owner/manager with rigged machines, would you want to take a chance on that happening?
 
The whole theory just doesn't make any sense, looking at the possible penalties when the tried-and-true legal method of lowering paytables can be used instead.  It's been said that "we're all addicts" and will play anything anyway, just to get our fix.  So, I really believe it's just some sort of attention-getter for the theory originator.  
 
 

[Benfords Law]

Considering what once happened to video poker programmer Larry Volk, I say anyone who might be gaffing the machines would have a good reason to keep quiet about it:http://news.zdnet.co.uk/security/0,1000 ... ~Benford's Law

[shadowman]

Larry Volk actually is good evidence of CDs point. He couldn't keep it to himself nor would he limit his greed.

[cddenver]

Larry Volk actually is good evidence of CDs point. He couldn't keep it to himself nor would he limit his greed.


 
Not actually knowing how things are done at IGT, I'd say that nowadays no one coder can have that kind of control of game software.  From a corporate standpoint you'd be in a bad situation if your one coder decided to leave for another position, or retired, or had a heart attack.  They probably have a separate testing and quality control group as well.  It's much more difficult to get multiple people in on something like that than just one person.

[vdpkr557]

He accepted the offer but will never show, as Im told is the norm with the type of people who claim that a martengale system gets the money. Either way such a tiny sample of hands will basically tell us nothing, in a mathematical sense.