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MACHINE HOLD
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royal flush
- Video Poker Master
- Posts: 1117
- Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:50 pm
Re: MACHINE HOLD
thats why vp lasted as long as it did
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rascal
- VP Veteran
- Posts: 685
- Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2006 12:25 am
Yep, the actual payback % advertised is under totally perfect, totally optimal conditions over the long-term. It assumes the royals and aces come on schedule and it assumes that no drunks play the machine.
The reality is that at one casino in Laughlin that I am very familiar with, they very rarely have a machine that pays out over 95% over a year's time. And there are banks there where the one-year average ranges from the high 80's to the lower 90's.
Another casino I am aware of actually raised the paytables on certain denoms/games because the players were being hit so hard that the hold sounded so terrible on their reports.
I would venture that for every good player who knows what he/she is doing, there are three more who are clueless...or drunk. Even the very best player is worthless when drinking too much. I wonder how much our good friend from Arizona donates to the casino when he's had too much.
The reality is that at one casino in Laughlin that I am very familiar with, they very rarely have a machine that pays out over 95% over a year's time. And there are banks there where the one-year average ranges from the high 80's to the lower 90's.
Another casino I am aware of actually raised the paytables on certain denoms/games because the players were being hit so hard that the hold sounded so terrible on their reports.
I would venture that for every good player who knows what he/she is doing, there are three more who are clueless...or drunk. Even the very best player is worthless when drinking too much. I wonder how much our good friend from Arizona donates to the casino when he's had too much.
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shadowman
- Video Poker Master
- Posts: 3587
- Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:42 pm
I would venture that for every good player who knows what he/she is doing, there are three more who are clueless...or drunk. Even the very best player is worthless when drinking too much. I wonder how much our good friend from Arizona donates to the casino when he's had too much.
And, when he hasn't. Those -ev games will get you eventually.
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Lucky Larry
- Video Poker Master
- Posts: 2693
- Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 7:35 pm
rascal,
I concur. many casual players and drop ins haven't got a clue. I especially love the ones who come in from playing table poker and play VP the same way. On the other hand, most of the serious regular players we see generally play correctly and will ask others when in doubt.
With 96-98% VP pay tables and most players not playing in the high 90's % correctly the casino is not losing money on VP. So overall VP play may lead to a 8-10% house edge. This is well within the regular slot returns. Yet, VP players don't get but .5 the comp points and VP is not included on Multiplier Days. Some days I feel like playing the slots on a few bucks just to build up comps and cash back. VP players need to confront slot directors with these issues.
I once talked to one of the slot directors at Red Rock about their offering 100% return pay tables. The response was that the serious players would play them but that enough poor players also played them to make it profitable for the casino. It was also just a way to draw players into the casino. Full pay machines were busy so players played at other lower return machines or the new "extra buck bonus games likes Spin, STP, Wheel, Random Rewards and Dream Card where the casino made even more money.
We can't convince our GM that in his competitive market the only edge he can have over the newer competitor casino is to provide better pay tables to draw more players.
LL
I concur. many casual players and drop ins haven't got a clue. I especially love the ones who come in from playing table poker and play VP the same way. On the other hand, most of the serious regular players we see generally play correctly and will ask others when in doubt.
With 96-98% VP pay tables and most players not playing in the high 90's % correctly the casino is not losing money on VP. So overall VP play may lead to a 8-10% house edge. This is well within the regular slot returns. Yet, VP players don't get but .5 the comp points and VP is not included on Multiplier Days. Some days I feel like playing the slots on a few bucks just to build up comps and cash back. VP players need to confront slot directors with these issues.
I once talked to one of the slot directors at Red Rock about their offering 100% return pay tables. The response was that the serious players would play them but that enough poor players also played them to make it profitable for the casino. It was also just a way to draw players into the casino. Full pay machines were busy so players played at other lower return machines or the new "extra buck bonus games likes Spin, STP, Wheel, Random Rewards and Dream Card where the casino made even more money.
We can't convince our GM that in his competitive market the only edge he can have over the newer competitor casino is to provide better pay tables to draw more players.
LL
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Eduardo
- Video Poker Master
- Posts: 2963
- Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:19 pm
Casinos really miss out on the importance of pay tables. Vegas is a big place. If there's nothing good to play, I'll play (and stay, and eat, and bring my friends) somewhere else. It's really that simple. I have played a few occasions out of convenience when I had other reasons to be somewhere. But a large majority of my bankroll is due to a place offering the games I like with a decent pay table.
Trust me, the Hilton sportsbook isn't that charming (it would have more appeal if I was into sports betting of course). But I find myself there almost every trip to Vegas to play my favorite machine, full pay Loose Deuce. They don't have a lot of full pay, but they happen to have a personal favorite. I've driven across town for that machine, and stayed there overnight multiple times. I don't know if they have tried other full pay games and deemed them a poor business decision, or if they are just afraid to try. I'm guessing the draw would be meaningful to business as a whole. They also have great snack/lunch food at that Sportsbook, by the way.
I used to play a lot at Stations for the same reason. It's been a while though, simply because they are further from the strip. I've been meaning to get to Palms for some time because their offerings look great, but for some reason it hasn't worked out yet.
Trust me, the Hilton sportsbook isn't that charming (it would have more appeal if I was into sports betting of course). But I find myself there almost every trip to Vegas to play my favorite machine, full pay Loose Deuce. They don't have a lot of full pay, but they happen to have a personal favorite. I've driven across town for that machine, and stayed there overnight multiple times. I don't know if they have tried other full pay games and deemed them a poor business decision, or if they are just afraid to try. I'm guessing the draw would be meaningful to business as a whole. They also have great snack/lunch food at that Sportsbook, by the way.
I used to play a lot at Stations for the same reason. It's been a while though, simply because they are further from the strip. I've been meaning to get to Palms for some time because their offerings look great, but for some reason it hasn't worked out yet.
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BillyJoe
- Video Poker Master
- Posts: 3198
- Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 2:00 pm
rascal,
I concur. many casual players and drop ins haven't got a clue. I especially love the ones who come in from playing table poker and play VP the same way. On the other hand, most of the serious regular players we see generally play correctly and will ask others when in doubt.
With 96-98% VP pay tables and most players not playing in the high 90's % correctly the casino is not losing money on VP. So overall VP play may lead to a 8-10% house edge. This is well within the regular slot returns. Yet, VP players don't get but .5 the comp points and VP is not included on Multiplier Days. Some days I feel like playing the slots on a few bucks just to build up comps and cash back. VP players need to confront slot directors with these issues.
I once talked to one of the slot directors at Red Rock about their offering 100% return pay tables. The response was that the serious players would play them but that enough poor players also played them to make it profitable for the casino. It was also just a way to draw players into the casino. Full pay machines were busy so players played at other lower return machines or the new "extra buck bonus games likes Spin, STP, Wheel, Random Rewards and Dream Card where the casino made even more money.
We can't convince our GM that in his competitive market the only edge he can have over the newer competitor casino is to provide better pay tables to draw more players.
LL
Well, my experience has been, most Strip property Slot Supervisors and even Casino Execs could care less about pay tables. They are only concerned about filling their floor space with the optimum combination of slots and VP to maximze play. If they thought a particular slot would get one more player a week than a VP machine, that VP machine would be gone in a flash. So they seem to react to any slow play on VP machines as, not a pay table problem, but rather, let's get a slot in that spot.
I concur. many casual players and drop ins haven't got a clue. I especially love the ones who come in from playing table poker and play VP the same way. On the other hand, most of the serious regular players we see generally play correctly and will ask others when in doubt.
With 96-98% VP pay tables and most players not playing in the high 90's % correctly the casino is not losing money on VP. So overall VP play may lead to a 8-10% house edge. This is well within the regular slot returns. Yet, VP players don't get but .5 the comp points and VP is not included on Multiplier Days. Some days I feel like playing the slots on a few bucks just to build up comps and cash back. VP players need to confront slot directors with these issues.
I once talked to one of the slot directors at Red Rock about their offering 100% return pay tables. The response was that the serious players would play them but that enough poor players also played them to make it profitable for the casino. It was also just a way to draw players into the casino. Full pay machines were busy so players played at other lower return machines or the new "extra buck bonus games likes Spin, STP, Wheel, Random Rewards and Dream Card where the casino made even more money.
We can't convince our GM that in his competitive market the only edge he can have over the newer competitor casino is to provide better pay tables to draw more players.
LL
Well, my experience has been, most Strip property Slot Supervisors and even Casino Execs could care less about pay tables. They are only concerned about filling their floor space with the optimum combination of slots and VP to maximze play. If they thought a particular slot would get one more player a week than a VP machine, that VP machine would be gone in a flash. So they seem to react to any slow play on VP machines as, not a pay table problem, but rather, let's get a slot in that spot.
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Eduardo
- Video Poker Master
- Posts: 2963
- Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:19 pm
I'm sure the balance of slots vs. video poker is a very important decision. Unfortunately, they can only measure the play of people who actually play at their casino... not the people they could attract with different machines or pay tables. It's a decision they have to make with imperfect information, and I'm not sure they always consider all the factors properly. I'm sure they do the best they can, and let's face it... I want better pay tables for selfish reasons. Maybe they just don't want me as a customer. There are still enough places to play out there that I'm okay with that.
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farmer1
- Senior Member
- Posts: 186
- Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:37 pm
GLAD TO HEAR ALL THE RESPONSES. I TO HAVE SEEN MANY MANY PEOPLE PLAY IN WAYS THAT MAKES NO SENSE TO ME OR ANYONE WHO KNOWS ANYTHING ABOUT POKER PERIOD. HOWEVER, MANY OF THESE PEOPLE ARE LAUGHING AND SOCIALIZING HAVING A "FREE" DRINK OR TWO AND SEEM TO BE HAVING A GOOD TIME. THERE IS SOMETHING TO BE SAID FOR THAT.FYI, I WAS PLAYING $1. JP WAS $20,800.
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onemoretry
- Video Poker Master
- Posts: 3021
- Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:00 pm
rascal,
I concur. many casual players and drop ins haven't got a clue. LL
As I read this comment, I couldn't help wondering what a person observing your 4 to the wild royal play (discarding the one deuce), as related in another thread, would think about your play.
I concur. many casual players and drop ins haven't got a clue. LL
As I read this comment, I couldn't help wondering what a person observing your 4 to the wild royal play (discarding the one deuce), as related in another thread, would think about your play.
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Bstreaking
- Forum Newbie
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 8:45 pm
Exotics- Didn't the OP say Triple-Double. like 2-1-1 on the bottom end? I never even looked at this configuration, even in a full-pay version. What is a full pay version? Does ir have enhanced straights and flushes over 9/6? I can play Double Bonus 10/7/5 over Jacks 9/6 and know the non-penalty moves.Having a hold 3% less than optimal sounds about right to me. Just go visit 5-Cards site, wrong perfect strategy page.
