Moving Up In Denomination?

[FloridaPhil]

I’ve decided to rephrase my question.  My question is “Is it a bad thing to move up and down in denomination?”  Most of us are playing losing games, so it seems the best overall play is to reduce the cost of VP to its lowest level.  On the other hand, say you’re playing DDB .25 and hit 4 Kings; you switch to .50 and hit 4 Aces with a kicker for $1,000.  It rarely ever happens, so you lose your money often.  Am I fooling myself by trying to go for the big score or should I stay with quarters and be happy with it ?  

[VPMiami]

I regularly move between nickels and quarters, depending upon the bankroll I've decided to play for a given session.  I believe it comes down to your bankroll and tolerance for taking a loss. In the short run, you really don't gain much of an edge moving from quarters to $0.50.  In many casinos, the pay tables are the same. In some South Florida casinos, I've seen identical pay tables for all denominations from nickels all the way to $1. In other casions you gain only a fraction of 1% expected return when moving up. My general rule when moving up is that I have to adjust my expectations that I will lose more.  My acceptable expected loss is 400 to 800 units for a session (depending how long I wish to play).  For example, when playing nickels, I will generally play $20 and expect that'll be gone in about an hour.  If I move up to quarters, then it's $100.  If I am playing within my bankroll, then I don't lose any sleep over this.  It's just part of the game and when I've reached my loss limit, I'm done for that session.  Time for a break, a drink, a meal, sleep, whatever. The more common problem I see is that people don't know when to walk.  They lose their first buy-in, but then keep pumping more money into the machine thereby magnifying their losing session.  Or they hit a nice 4 OAK (or better) or hit a nice short term winning streak where they double their buy-in, but then proceed to dump it all back into the machine. Remember that the pay tables assume that you're playing the machines for an infinite length of time.  For short term sessions, variance will make you a winner or a loser.  I think a lot of folks have trouble locking in their wins and cutting their losing sessions short. - D -

[VPMiami]

Another strategy I've used when moving to a higher demonination is to totally discount the long shot and play the denomination with the better short term exepected return... the pay table that will allow me to extend my play longer to perhaps hit the rare high payer. As an example, say I'm playing Deuces Wild.  I totally dismiss that I will get a royal flush or quad 2's.  Instead I focus on the lower half of the pay table and see which awards me best for the common payouts.  These are the pays that will occur most often, extending my session when they hit, giving me more chances that the machine might surprise me with 1000 or 4000 coins. So, if the pay table at a nickel starts like this: 1 - 2 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 9 and the pay table at a quarter starts like this: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 4 - 9 Then I don't mind playing the quarters for the extra "juice" I get for the flush and full house.  My hope is that the slight edge at the lower payouts will give me enough "extra" spins to hit one of the magic combos. - D -

[FloridaPhil]

"The more common problem I see is that people don't know when to walk. 
They lose their first buy-in, but then keep pumping more money into the
machine thereby magnifying their losing session.  Or they hit a nice 4
OAK (or better) or hit a nice short term winning streak where they
double their buy-in, but then proceed to dump it all back into the
machine."My problem exactly.  I need to learn to be happy with small wins.  I keep chasing the big one. (Don't think I'm alone on that one)  

[brmcc74]

I will give my example. I lost $600 the other day playing quarters within 2-3 hours. If I was playing $1 it would have just been an even shorter trip. If I was playing nickles, not only would I have not lost $600 but I would have left after 8 or 9 hours. Just depends on how much youre willing to wager OR how long you want your trip to last. IMO

[VPMiami]

That's one of the tradeoffs, especially if you have to travel a distance to play VP.  If you prefer to judge your play by session length instead of money won/lost, then you'll always run the risk of dumping your winnings back into the machine if you hit early or not at all. I am fortunate to have several VP venues within 30 minutes of my home.  If I walk into the casino and hit a big pay in the first few minutes, I have absolutely no problem walking out immediately and driving home.  For example, when playing Deuces Wild, a royal flush, 4 deuces or a streak that doubles me up usually means I'm done. If, however, I had to drive several hours to play, I can't guarantee I'd be as willing to walk away so quickly with cash-in-hand.  What fun would that be?   - D -

[FloridaPhil]

My feelings exactly.  It's about 3 hrs. round trip from my home to the Tampa Hard Rock, so it's tough to kill $300 playing dollars in 10 minutes and it's over.  I've tried everything I can think of to play longer and still have a chance at a decent jackpot.   I've actually had the best luck playing 1 coin dollars and hitting the max button when I get a run up.  I've hit some really nice jackpots that way, but it worries me to throw away a Royal.  I only average about 2-3 Royals a year, but when you hit one with one coin, it hurts...

[VPMiami]

If I were in your shoes and wanted to extend my play time, I'd most likely accept the less EV+ pay tables and play at a level where I'm comfortable always playing 5 coins.  I haven't graduated to $1 denomination yet since I don't have the tolerance to possibly lose $400 to $800 per session. One strategy I did use when first starting out which greatly helped me with my "walk away" discipline was the "25% rule".  While playing, if I ever ran the machine up 25%, I would collect my ticket and cash it.  I'd then pocket the excess and then start a new session with the original buy-in.  The 25% money could not be used for further VP. So on a nickel machine, if I put in a $20 and the machine hit $25, I'd collect the ticket, put $5 in my pocket and go back to playing with the original $20.  Funny how my mostly losing session began turning into winners. True, on a nickel machine, I'm never going to get a hand pay, but there are months when I've won just shy of $1,000.  On the opposite hand, I don't think I've ever had a month where I've lost more than $300. - D -

[jim18]

I think that you guys have somehow read my mind, or seen into my past experiences.  You are saying things that I surely do relate to.Sometime this year I read an article in “Strictly Slots” dealing with winning and walking away from the machine.  It looks to me as if a player can’t go to far wrong setting a limit for winning or for losing.  When that level is achieved, then it is time to move to the next machine.While playing VP on this site, I have seen my winnings go up, then fall and never return to the past heights.  So, I am with you.  When you hit a certain gain, then protect that gain with discipline.Sure, I agree with the experts that if you change machines, your theoretical odds do not change.  They, I think, will suggest that nothing is gained by changing machines.  To prove them right, I have set at the same machine for hours.  With the passing of each hour the hole that I was in became deeper.From reading posts on this forum, and reading elsewhere, I appears to me that you and I and most people outside of NV are dealing with negative expectation games.  The more coins we put into the machine (5), and the higher the denomination we select, combined with playing more hours should, in the long run spell greater losses.Driving to casinos in IN now takes up to three hours round trip.  Just the cost of driving at 50 cents per mile means that I have to win 70 dollars to break even.  At low denominations this adds to my burden, or chances of having a winning session.From playing VP for hours and days on this site I have come to the conclusion that it is a mistake to play low volatility games such as JOB, BP, or DW.  The only way that you can get up from those machines a winner is with a RF.  Not likely to happen within a few hours of play.So, next time I go to the casino I am going to try a new strategy.  I will play DB, and I will play multiple hands.  Maybe even with a bonus feature like STP offers.  By doing this, I think I will have multiple ways of winning more than enough credits to allow me to quit that machine.  By playing at a five cent level or ten cent level, I can give my idea time to work.  And a good win at the low level would then allow me to move up, next to quarters and all the way up to whatever.Recently, I asked Webman if this site could be enhanced to include more information, especially usual to the individual on how they were doing on each game.  For instance, how many hands have I played on “50 play draw”?  And what is my combined win/loss score for that game.  And how accurate am I playing the game.  Over time you can tell which games you seem to do well at, so that when you go live, your chances are better that you are being matched to the best games per you experience on this site.In the end, VP for most people is just a form of entertainment.  And this entertainment will cost the player. You can play one credit at a dollar, or twenty credits at five cents.  With the nickels you will get paid the full value of a RF, which may occur once or twice a year.  Or you can get paid based on a better pay schedule, hand after hand, by moving up to dollars.  What is the difference between six and half a dozen?  That is the same difference between one dollar and twenty nickels.

[FloridaPhil]

I started out playing $1 games and it was nothing to lose $600 in a session.  I had some great days (one $10,000 plus), but the loses were more than I could deal with.  I could afford to lose, but it just didn't seem like the right thing to do.   These days, my session limit is about $250.  You are right about JB and Bonus, it's just a long long boring ride with 2-3 good days a year (not enought excitment for me).  My wife pays .25 JB exclusively.  She always plays max coins and she wins and breaks even a lot.  It's amazing how little it costs her per hour to play.  I just can't do it....