what would i hold on this?

[jm002546]

Yes, I intended the 100.17 version.  That was dumb.  And I admit I found the question interesting because I couldn't really follow my reasoning to solve it.  Kept getting confused and wondering if it was really a taxing question. My thinking was that it would be pretty easy to just figure when you would discard the best non-royal paying hand, being 4 aces.But, i figured you smart guys could give me a simple answer, or really just the stated formula and conditions. But would a jack be better than a ten? I found it a confusing puzzle to me. I'm not real smart on complicated puzzles. It seems obvious that you would never hold anything but a royal card. I admire intelligence in others.  Wish I were as smart as Wiz in many areas. You too, I'm pretty certain.    

[New2vp]

Wish I were as smart as Wiz in many areas. You too, I'm pretty certain. 

Thanks for your kind words.  My guess is that you are much smarter in many areas than either of us.  I recall some insightful comments in previous posts.Regardless of some people wanting to reduce the measure of intelligence down to a simple number like IQ, intelligence is multi-dimensional.  Being good at one thing doesn't necessarily preclude being good at another, but rarely is someone better than another at everything.Mathematically, I could simply say, "Intelligence is a vector, not a scalar," but if I said only that many non-mathematicians would not get it.

[New2vp]

I found it a confusing puzzle to me.It would be confusing to me as well if (1) I didn't have access to software like WinPoker that another wrote, and (2) I hadn't spent way too much time over the years playing with it.

[jm002546]

[QUOTE=jm002546]I found it a confusing puzzle to me.It would be confusing to me as well if (1) I didn't have access to software like WinPoker that another wrote, and (2) I hadn't spent way too much time over the years playing with it.[/QUOTE]OK, can you tell me what the first hold would be with infinite royal?  Always J or T?  Something else?  Bear in mind, if you didn't, the chance of a royal is the same for any single high card.  Would T be better J if with penalty J, 2 penalty J, 3 penalty J.   For the record, I'm only partially smart in logic.

[New2vp]

Ok, I don't think most will like my first example, but infinity is a strange concept full of paradoxes that defy intuition.  Infinity does not behave like real numbers do.  If the progressive jackpot is infinite and you wish to always make a max-EV play, consider the possibilities if you are dealt a royal flush.  Of course, the snap decision is to keep all 5 cards to the royal flush and then live like the king of the world for the rest of your life.  (I would do that, too, because I would not want to wait to get my infinite riches!!)  However, there is one other hold that has infinite expectation; that is to toss all 5 cards.  Granted you then only have a 3 out of 1,533,939 chance at drawing a royal, but when you multiply that (or any positive number) times an infinite payout, you also get infinity.  So in the max-EV sense, both holds have an infinite return and are necessarily better than the other 30 possible holds since none of the other holds can produce a royal flush.  One way of thinking about this is that sooner or later, tossing all 5 cards will produce the infinite payoff.  (I have never had a redraw royal, but we are talking infinity here, which is not a practical situation but a theoretical one.)  You cannot really say something like "3 times infinity is greater 2
times infinity" is true.  I do not want to call them equal to each other
either. Both products are greater than any real number, so they are both
still infinity.Extrapolating from this situation, any hold that has any chance of a royal (including a singleton T or a singleton J) has infinite expectation (so long as you are not tossing away other cards that would make drawing a royal in that suit impossible), so in order to choose one over another, you must use a different method rather than selecting the hold with the highest expected value.  If you don't agree or don't get it, no worries; the situation will never arise.   Now, let me answer the question without the paradox of infinity.  Instead, let's say the jackpot is very large (but still finite) at, say, one trillion coins; and we will continue to assume 10/7 (100.17%) DB for the other hand payoffs (the answers are different with Deuces Wild where a lone pair of Jacks or better has no payoff).  Then as you surmised, we would generally hold a singleton jack (if we didn't have any holds with 2 or more cards to a royal flush) but we might hold a singleton ten.I assume that when you say, "Would T be better J if with penalty J, 2 penalty J, 3 penalty J" that you mean to compare hands like JJTxx, JJJTx, or JJJJT, but I could be wrong here if you mean something else.You can determine this by using regular video poker software and comparing the EVs of the two different holds.  To do this, it does not matter what number you put in for the value of a royal since, as you said, both a lone J or a lone T have the same 1 chance in 178,365 of producing a royal flush AND THIS VALUE IS EQUAL, no matter how big the payoff is, so long as it is still finite.  So, enter any number that you want as the royal payoff and simply see which of the holds is higher on the list.If you have JJJTx, with the x being a non-royal card and with all the Jacks and the Ten being from 4 different suits, you should find that the T is the better hold.  Note that if you would have the "3 penalty J" situation as in JJJJT, one of the jacks would necessarily be suited with the ten, so the better hold would be JT suited rather than a singleton ten or any singleton Jack.  And with a dealt full house of JJJTT, you would also have to have at least one hold that was JT suited and that would be the better hold.

[jm002546]

  Now , why would I PURCHASE any of that software just to able able to answer a question as ridiculous as this?  Yes, the infinity was used only in lieu of listing that still unknown number whereby you would discard the top paying hand for a redraw.  Yes, the J 3 penalty J was "not well thought out", obviously not thought out at all.  And we were considering FPDB.  And since I stated the question so poorly I'll just shut up.  You're welcome, everyone, including NEW.  I loved your argument that you could discard a dealt royal for complete redraw with no loss in EV.  It's both irrefutable and impossible at the same time, sort of.  Have you perused the Wizard of Vegas forum?  You'd love it, I think.  Enjoyed your post!  

[New2vp]

Now , why would I PURCHASE any of that software just to able able to answer a question as ridiculous as this?I wasn't suggesting that you buy software, but I didn't know if you already had some.  You can also do this for free at vpgenius.com and possibly somewhere on the Wizard's website.  Plus I didn't want to call your question "ridiculous."Have you perused the Wizard of Vegas forum?  You'd love
it, I think.  Enjoyed your post!Thank you. Yes, I have seen the WoV forum and exchanged a few emails with Michael Shackleford, but I have never posted there.  I already spend enough time on this and a couple other sites.  By the way, I have found the Wizard to be exceptionally classy, polite, and despite him already having most of the answers, always interested in finding even more, regardless of whose idea it was. 

[backsider]

I post maybe once or twice a week on the Wizards forum. I agree he is the exception to the rule by being a classy and respectful administrator. Ive also found he knows more than anyone on any forum about so many things. When a name like RSs comes up he doesnt have a 25lb. baby and say googoo a thousand times either. He even has a respectable interview page he displays whenever the name comes up. Imagine that, an open mind in the sacred halls of advantage play video poker.

[jm002546]

[QUOTE=jm002546]Now , why would I PURCHASE any of that software just to able able to answer a question as ridiculous as this?I wasn't suggesting that you buy software, but I didn't know if you already had some.  You can also do this for free at vpgenius.com and possibly somewhere on the Wizard's website.  Plus I didn't want to call your question "ridiculous."Have you perused the Wizard of Vegas forum?  You'd love
it, I think.  Enjoyed your post!Thank you. Yes, I have seen the WoV forum and exchanged a few emails with Michael Shackleford, but I have never posted there.  I already spend enough time on this and a couple other sites.  By the way, I have found the Wizard to be exceptionally classy, polite, and despite him already having most of the answers, always interested in finding even more, regardless of whose idea it was. 
[/QUOTE]I actually use vpgenius for my practice play, and a lot.  I don't know how versatile it is.Their strategy lists are done in an odd way, and not consise at all. But in warn mode it does exactly what I need. Takes keyboard commands for hold, which the Wiz's version does not.  Would it really accept a  huge royal amount and function properly?

[New2vp]

Would it really accept a  huge royal amount and function properly?I believe it takes up to 8 digits, so you can enter 99999999, which is not quite large enough in 10/7 DB to justify tossing quad aces or quad 2s-4s.  But it also accepts fractional values in decimal forms, so you can divide all the other payoffs by 10 by introducing a decimal point before the payoffs that end in 5 and dropping the 0 in payoffs that end in zero.Then its Strategy Guide will show only holds that have exclusively royal holds (including redraws).  But, as you said earlier, the Strategy Guide does not handle penalty situations, so you will have to enter the cards manually using its Hand Analyzer function to find out answers to some of the questions you previously asked.