RF On A MG Machine??????

[Frank Kneeland]

Mr. Frank, if you're implying I have a high IQ, thank you but my base psychologist says its only average.   But its other smarter people Ive read who lead me to believe the machines are not always random. I believe theyre random enough so that no one can notice anything during their play. Truly, I dont see how anyone no matter how smart would be able to tell the difference. This notion that no casino employee would ever alter a chip for whatever reason, whether legal or not which no one really knows what it is either way, is wishful thinking for lack of better wording. Ill bet the casino industry either pays people to come on the forums trying to choke people who question randomness like I and many others do, or it laughs at them every day until dawn for making such a fuss about it.  Shadow, I see your New Years resolution didnt include refraining from insults or getting agitated over things that mean so little in the overall scheme of your life.  There are ways to know for sure and there is a process to follow. It's one of those things in life that's hard to see until you know it, and to know it you need to see it.Try that book I suggested if you're interested. I will also work on a long explanation more specific to VP.I think you've just given me a good idea for my next months article in BJI. Thanks!

[shadowman]

Mr. Frank, if you're implying I have a high IQ, thank you but my base psychologist says its only average.   But its other smarter people Ive read who lead me to believe the machines are not always random. I believe theyre random enough so that no one can notice anything during their play. Truly, I dont see how anyone no matter how smart would be able to tell the difference.
 
So, who are these "smarter people" and why do you believe them? I mean, if no one can tell the difference then how could anyone know?
 

This notion that no casino employee would ever alter a chip for whatever reason, whether legal or not which no one really knows what it is either way, is wishful thinking for lack of better wording.
 
So, you believe the casino industry hires people to break the law and yet no one has ever came forward and shown any evidence of this behavior. Not once has one of these altered machines been discovered on a casino floor.
 
You sure do accept conspiracy theories easily. Tell us, who did kill JFK?
 
  Ill bet the casino industry either pays people to come on the forums trying to choke people who question randomness like I and many others do, or it laughs at them every day until dawn for making such a fuss about it.  
 
I'm sure they do get some laughs at the weird conspiracy theories. Of course, one must also ask why casinos have been continuously downgrading paytables over the last 10 years. If all they have to do is hire someone to reprogram the machines and hire a few folks to post on forums, then why would they ever downgrade machines?
 

Shadow, I see your New Years resolution didnt include refraining from insults or getting agitated over things that mean so little in the overall scheme of your life.  

 
Let's see, who is it that always uses the word "agitate" and asserts the behavior of others? Gosh, I can't remember right now. Probably some old has-been.

[backsider]

Shadow, you definitely provide entertainment. Who else would get all worked up over something so insignificant? Chill out man, youre acting as if someone hacked into your personal blog and wrote something you cant live with. Showing a lack of a New Years resolution that includes not getting bothered by postings on forums that you cant agree with: curious. Being so agitated, yes agitated, by a post that you cant refrain from the silliness of categorically breaking down a response for your own sanity? Priceless!   Off to the Cannery right now for some non random fun!   

[Frank Kneeland]

Here I'll have to lean towards the other side of the argument. Seeing patterns where there aren't any can lead to disastrous decision making.Here's a good rule of thumb: Employ Occam's Razor. Usually, the simplest explanation is the correct one.We know the human mind looks for patterns.We are told machines are random.We know that if we try to analyse anything random in our heads it will not appear that way to us.So when our minds tell us something is not random, apply a mathematical formula like the Chi Squared Test, which is designed to tell us if chance alone is responsible for results. After crunching the numbers and looking at all the possible explanations for our results, then and only then consider going against the simplest and most probable explanation which is:Chance alone is responsible for our results and the patterns we see are only in our heads.You said: Backsider--But its other smarter people I've read who lead me to believe the
machines are not always random. I believe they're random enough so that
no one can notice anything during their play. Truly, I don't see how
anyone no matter how smart would be able to tell the difference.These are interesting statments because they are mutually exclusive. You say that you don't see how anyone could know, but you open with saying that you believe the people telling you machines are not always random. How this appears to me is that you accept when people say what you already believe and dismiss dis-confirmatory evidence when it contradicts what you already believe.As long as you maintain this policy your opinion right or wrong can never change...and right or wrong you'll always believe yourself to be right. That's bad science my man.You must at least adopt a mentality that allows for change.~FKP.S. I see patterns to. I just ignore them.P.P.S. And understand Backsider: When you post information on a site such as this where people are coming for advice, what works for you could prove disastrous for someone else with less control. This is why one should always promote self learning and general math knowledge in gambling matters. Giving just your opinion, right or wrong, could be wrong for someone else. Consider your audience. Rather than tell people if I believe machines to be random or not, I'd rather teach them the math to figure it out on their own. It is just math.

[shadowman]

Shadow, you definitely provide entertainment. Who else would get all worked up over something so insignificant? Chill out man, youre acting as if someone hacked into your personal blog and wrote something you cant live with.
 
There you go again. Just like that old has-been you are asserting what I feel. Of course, you are completely wrong as is quite normal for you. Your comments are completely hilarious with all your conspiracy nonsense. My responses simply point out how ludicrous your ideas really are.
 
Showing a lack of a New Years resolution that includes not getting bothered by postings on forums that you cant agree with: curious.
Being so agitated, yes agitated, by a post that you cant refrain from the silliness of categorically breaking down a response for your own sanity? Priceless!  

 
Since you couldn't respond to anything I stated it pretty much demonstrates you have no counter argument. All you can do is try to assert that your nonsense ideas bother me. Now that really is silly.
 
The truth is you made some crazy claims that anyone could destroy by simple common sense. Hopefully, you will not spew more of your silly conspiracy nonsense but somehow I doubt it.

[brmcc74]

I just got back from a week in Vegas and I play VP exclusively. On the "long" flight back to the East Coast I was thinking (ever see the comedian George Wallace? ("I be thinking") Well., I be thinking on flight back.
 
I am going to make several assumptions (ain't I brave) that leads into a few questions. So, if my assumptions are incorrect then ignore my question.
 
Let's assume that I am playing a VP machine with Multiple Games. Let me also assume that I can expect approx 25 RFs over the next million hands played. My third assumption is that the machine has a "chip" or is in someway "programed"  and/or has "software" that will deal out approx 25 RF's over the next one million hands.
 
My question is: Is the expected 25 RF's over the next one million hands played pertain to each individual game or is it 25 RF's over the next one million hands played on this machine combined?  In other words if I was to play 10 different games for 100,000 plays (on the same machine) each could I reasonably expect to see approx 25 RF's after one million hands played? 
 
 A second question is: If this MG VP machine has (as most do) multiple denominations, is the machine pre-programed to have x number of RF's per denomination or is it programed to be random? Meaning it may give up 25 RF's over the next million hands played and all or any part of the 25 may be any denomination.
 
Final question: Is each machine programed individually or are machines programed by banks? Are all machines of the same type programed so that one one individual machine may never hit a RF but others in the bank may hit several within a short period time?
 
Darn...........all this "I be thinking" gives me a headache!!!!!
 The only programming in a bank would take place with a progressive. This would be for AWAK or RF or etc.......same amount for all mach's climbing until the plateu (jackpot) is achieved. Then as a bank, it "resets" and climbs towards a new jackpot. Meter programming amount of Progressive.
 
Randomness= Personally if I ever doubted that a vp mach was ever NOT random, I could never play it. Its hard enough to win even with it being random, the math tells us that. The deal with random is this
EX=1. Tom goes to the casino on Monday and loses $1k playing 10/7 DB.
        2. Tom goes back on Tuesday and loses another $1k same game.
        3. Tom goes back on Wednesday and hits a rf after being down -$800
Tom begins to see a pattern that he just doesnt understand. After all, he has done his homework and studied hard. Even though YES  I believe Toms next hand will be random. This doesnt change the fact that he is down -$2200 for 3 days play. Now maybe if he had more $ to chase it, he could catch it. Or maybe if he had more $, he just wouldnt miss it because he has more of it. This is an observation of how different people view randomness
 
 

[backsider]

Frank, mutually exclusive is a good point, but I have to believe in something so those people who say things are not always random are the ones I choose to believe in. They just make more sense to me than those who say it cant be unrandom because of something or other thatll close them down or some other silliness. I dont know how to do a chisquare test and I dont know of anyone whos ever done that at a machine. Neither side has ever proven anything and they only are good at making semi-convincing statements. So Ive chosen my side. Shadowman, you do have problems. Take note how Frank addresses disagreements without defensive posturing, personal attacks, sweating, or losing it.  No ones taking your cereal away. Trust me.

[shadowman]

Shadowman, you do have problems. Take note how Frank addresses disagreements without defensive posturing, personal attacks, sweating, or losing it.  No ones taking your cereal away. Trust me.


 
Still can't stop with the assertions, can you? All I did was point out the ridiculous nature of your conspiracy nonsense. You are the only one who has made it personal.
 
BTW, you do realize there's this organization in Nevada called the Nevada Gaming Commission (I know you do and that you have intentionally been avoiding talking about it). I already pointed out part of the activities they do, but it goes much further than that. You should read their charter and the Nevada Gaming Regulations. They do the exact things you claim no one is doing. All the game manufacturers like IGT must follow their regulations or they cannot sell equipment in Nevada. That also means the equipment they sell everywhere in the country has gone through thorough testing.
 
One can only wonder why you are making the ridiculous claims you do when the information that proves you are wrong is so easily available.

[faygo]

 
Shadowman, you do have problems. Take note how Frank addresses disagreements without defensive posturing, personal attacks, sweating, or losing it.  No ones taking your cereal away. Trust me.

 
I had a Uncle that was a master at telling you off to your face and you thanking him when he was done.

[backsider]

I guess someone did take his cereal away, and I dont think he slept very good at the thought of it.