Scouting for plays??

[shadowman]

So, Shadow, you ARE agreeing with me..  If the goal is to get the NEXT RF, because that is when the progressive is the highest, a 10 person team has a better chance than any single individual. Who said anything about one member of the team making money?


 
No, last time I checked, the reason we all like RFs is they pay good money. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't like them because they're pretty.
 
That is the bottom line. A 10 player team hitting a $10K RF only yields each player $1K. Nothing to get overly excited about. I can do better than that quite often without hitting a RF.
 
So, the next RF is not all that important overall. What's important is consistently playing with an advantage. Over time, the RFs (and other good paying hands) will show up AND they will show up in the same relative percentages for individuals and team players.

[BillyJoe]

[QUOTE=billy joe]
So, Shadow, you ARE agreeing with me..  If the goal is to get the NEXT RF, because that is when the progressive is the highest, a 10 person team has a better chance than any single individual. Who said anything about one member of the team making money?


 
No, last time I checked, the reason we all like RFs is they pay good money. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't like them because they're pretty.
 
That is the bottom line. A 10 player team hitting a $10K RF only yields each player $1K. Nothing to get overly excited about. I can do better than that quite often without hitting a RF.
 
So, the next RF is not all that important overall. What's important is consistently playing with an advantage. Over time, the RFs (and other good paying hands) will show up AND they will show up in the same relative percentages for individuals and team players.[/QUOTE] 
Yep, I agree. I like to get a nice payout myself. But from what I have read of Frank's "advantage" strategy, it is to find machines that are set up incorrectly to pay at a higher rate than a "normal" pay table for that particular game. If that's an "advantage" VP player, than I guess a crook going door to door looking for one that is unlocked can be called an "advantage" burglar.  
All I am saying is that the casual player does not have the opportunity to always put themselves in an advantage position in VP. In fact, it is probably quite rare. If I see an opportunity to play a better pay table, I will jump at it. But I will not stop playing VP on a Vegas trip because there are no advantage opportunities. I will use comps and tier recognition to help overcome the potential VP disadvantage the casino has offered me. And hey - there is always that lucky hand opportunity.. 

[shadowman]

Billyjoe, while Frank did mention he occasionally finds machines set up incorrectly, I would not say that is his strategy. As I understand it his strategy is find progressive banks where the RF jackpot has risen so high that it leads to a return of much greater than 100%. I think he states an edge of 2-4% (or better) is what the team looks to play.
 
And, I understand that this approach is not reasonable for a someone who visits Vegas. In this case you have clearly stated your priorities. That is fine, but it does not change the fact that people can and do win playing VP by taking advantage of situations where they have the edge and one does not have to be a team member to do this.
 

[brmcc74]

Billyjoe, while Frank did mention he occasionally finds machines set up incorrectly, I would not say that is his strategy. As I understand it his strategy is find progressive banks where the RF jackpot has risen so high that it leads to a return of much greater than 100%. I think he states an edge of 2-4% (or better) is what the team looks to play.
 
And, I understand that this approach is not reasonable for a someone who visits Vegas. In this case you have clearly stated your priorities. That is fine, but it does not change the fact that people can and do win playing VP by taking advantage of situations where they have the edge and one does not have to be a team member to do this.
  Even IF a player claims to profit every year, What amount exactly are we talking about here. Say a player maintains a 4% advantage of play all year (which is near impossible). They played 1 million cash (BKRL) through out this year. Am I wrong to assume that this would be a $40'000 return? If so, who can live on 40k a year? Thats a heck of alot of $ gambled too as well. Lot of risk compared to reward. I believe that players can be ahead at times throughout their career. I dont see anyone making a living on vp. If they do then why do they all write books and do radio shows and work for casinos(work shops)? If something sounds to good to be true then chances are..........

[shadowman]

 Even IF a player claims to profit every year, What amount exactly are we talking about here. Say a player maintains a 4% advantage of play all year (which is near impossible). They played 1 million cash (BKRL) through out this year. Am I wrong to assume that this would be a $40'000 return? If so, who can live on 40k a year? Thats a heck of alot of $ gambled too as well. Lot of risk compared to reward. I believe that players can be ahead at times throughout their career. I dont see anyone making a living on vp. If they do then why do they all write books and do radio shows and work for casinos(work shops)? If something sounds to good to be true then chances are..........


 
Everything you stated is true except for the amount gambled. Let's look at a situation where a gambler has a 2% edge playing at the dollar level. To gamble a Million dollars would take 200K hands ($5/hand). For a player that averages 1000 hands/hour that's 200 hours or 5 weeks at 40 hours/week. So, they would make $20K in just 5 weeks. I think you'll agree that would be a reasonable career.
 
Now, there's a lot of assumptions in this scenario. They'd need to be able to find a 2% edge on a regular basis which is much more difficult today that it used to be. Of course, if one could find a few higher denominations plays here and there, they could put in far less time as well.
 
Also consider that pros like Frank can play twice as fast as I indicated. So, he would only need to put in 20 hours a week for the same profit. And, I haven't even factored in the potential for multi-play progressives making it even easier.
 
All that said, I feel that anyone capable of playing VP professionally is probably sharp enough to make a lot more money doing other activities. I think it makes a lot more sense for people who are retired as a means of supplementing their income.

[Frank Kneeland]

Frank, thank you for clearing that up. I did read what you said in your book, but upon reading the forums I was getting another picture.  No, Ive never run into any teams that I would know of at least, and if your team doesnt hog the machines then you are all gentlemen. My mom was a lifelong secretary and my dad was a supervisor with the city maintenance dept who were both on a salary. I cant see calling her a professional secretary or my dad a professional anything. A title doesnt really mean that much anyway the way I see it. What Im still a little perplexed at is that both you and the other two guys call yourselves professional gamblers or whatever the right term is, but you have totally opposite ways of doing what you do. I see them as gamblers and you really arent since you risk nothing. Thats why I asked the question.If you like you could call me a "Professional Video Poker Player", and leave out the word "gambling". Whatever you call it, I have the experience and the knowledge without the psychological baggage that usually comes with it.~FK

[Frank Kneeland]

Yep, I agree. I like to get a nice payout myself. But from what I have read of Frank's "advantage" strategy, it is to find machines that are set up incorrectly to pay at a higher rate than a "normal" pay table for that particular game. If that's an "advantage" VP player, than I guess a crook going door to door looking for one that is unlocked can be called an "advantage" burglar.  
Just to make sure we are clear: At no point in time have I ever said I was a regular Advantage Player. I don't even know any (well). We pass in casinos and wave, that's all. I'm in a whole different class of player.~FKP.S. I have never broken the law in casinos or even bent rules. I have on many occasion taken advantage of oversights and errors, but not mechanical ones. If something is printed in the rules I follow it to the letter. As an example; If they forget to say, "limit one per customer" I get more than one. If they do say, "limit one per customer" I get one and only one.

[Frank Kneeland]

I dont see anyone making a living on vp. If they do then why do they all write books and do radio shows and work for casinos(work shops)? If something sounds to good to be true then chances are..........You been listening to "...". I can't discuss my gambling income, but I'd be happy to tell you about my radio show and book profits, if there were any. I'm currently stuck about $8,000 on all I've ever done as an author and host during my entire life. Yes that's right, I have lost money publishing and doing the show.I did it to share knowledge and help people. That was my sole motivation. I'm very happy about the whole endeavor. It was really fun. if you think I did it for the money, or to supplement my VP income, clearly you don't have a grasp on the book industry right now. It is a negative expectancy. One writes books for other reasons, not profit.I support my writing habit with my gambling job. Not the other way around.~FKP.S. Jean Scott may be the sole exception to the not for profit rule of VP books. She's sold more books than all the other authors combined x5.

[Frank Kneeland]

One last very important thing...I agree with everyone when the say pro gambling is not really worth it anymore. It may never have been. Money isn't everything.That's why my fundamental goal these days is to discourage bad and problem gambling.I am NOT trying to promote professional gambling. I would not recommend it to anyone, especialy if I liked them.~FK

[BillyJoe]

One last very important thing...I agree with everyone when the say pro gambling is not really worth it anymore. It may never have been. Money isn't everything.That's why my fundamental goal these days is to discourage bad and problem gambling.I am NOT trying to promote professional gambling. I would not recommend it to anyone, especially if I liked them.~FK

See, Frank, I KNEW we could agree on something..  P.S. - I hope that you didn't incorrectly interpret my comments about your playing style earlier. I did not mean to imply that you broke any laws. Most machines I have seen have the disclaimer "Machine malfunction voids all plays" prominently displayed.