Let's compare some games

[BillyJoe]

There has always been a lot of talk about what VP games give you the best return. The 'darling' seems to be FPDW, while the 'goat' seems to be TDB. They both,of course, contain a Royal Flush in their calculations. But, really, how often does the recreational player hit an RF? So consider this...
 
Using Bob Dancer's VPW program (now pay attention Bob), I decided to look at returns WITHOUT RFs.
 
In FPDW, an RF occurs every 61.7k hands, but in TDB, every 45.3k hands - more frequently in TDB, but still, both are pretty big numbers for a recreational player. So if we take out the RFs (ie - made them a 0 pay), what would be the returns? FPDW would be 99.054 and 9/7 TDB would be 98.052 - still a full 1% better for FPDW.
 
But wait ... In TDB, AWAK pays 4000 credits, the same as an RF, and occurs about every 14k hands. PLUS, I can get 2000 credits every 5.8k hands for TTF/kkr. And that's for 9/7, 9/6 and even 9/5 TDB. I don't know how many hands I play during a session, day or trip, but I know that I have hit those premium quads often.   
 
In FPDW, without an RF to consider, the next highest hand  is four deuces, which is only 1000 credits , occurring every 4.9k hands, not that much more frequently than the 5.8k hands for TTF/kkr in TDB, but only HALF the value.
 
So, for a recreational player like me who almost NEVER sees an RF since I do not play enough hands, and is looking for some larger payouts that will give me a chance to reach my Session Win Stop Point  (sorry, Bob, it's my money management thing again), that 'goat' TDB is looking better and better.  Of course, you still need a bankroll to manage dips, and you need to have a Session Loss Stop Point to ensure that you can have some gaming money for later in the trip.
 
Disclaimer: The author of this post takes no responsibility for the accuracy of any calculations, and actual results may vary.         

[Eduardo]

If you take away the steak, the best steak house is the one with the best chicken.

[BillyJoe]

If you take away the steak, the best steak house is the one with the best chicken.
Is that left-over California logic, or have you been out East too long, ED ??

[Tedlark]

I think you got your Ed's crossed billyjoe.

[BobDancer]

The royal occurs about equally frequently in FPDW (45.3K --- NOT the 61.7K BJ states) and 9/7 TDB (45.4K). Taking out the royal won't change things. Setting the royal to zero WILL change the strategy for TDB more than FPDW simply because hands with one or more deuces in them won't be affected by a change in the royal in a DW game. Even if you figure you don't hit enough royals, changing your strategy by setting royals pay to zero will cost you big time. A dollar player who claims to be 7 Stars ($1 million coin-in a year minimum) is going to hit 4 or 5 royals a year --- plus a similar number at Noir casinos. If you play $5 games you only need to hit one royal to reach 7 Stars, but playing with a $1000 loss limit and a $2000 win limit on a $5 TDB machine is ludicrous. Often you can only play ten minutes before you're done for the day --- with no chance at all of reaching $1 million coin in a year even if you play way more than recreational players normally do, and even more than professional players do. Since FPDW largely doesn't exist for higher than quarters (other than at Skyline in Henderson --- with old coin-dropper machines and no slot club --- but it does have 10-coin quarter FPDW) comparing quarter FPDW with dollar TDB is apples and oranges.  Bob

[BillyJoe]

The royal occurs about equally frequently in FPDW (45.3K --- NOT the 61.7K BJ states) and 9/7 TDB (45.4K). Taking out the royal won't change things.Well, then fix your software, Bob, because I got that number from VPW. If you set the RF to zero in FPDW , it shows a frequency of  61.7K. You would think that it would not change, but it does.    Setting the royal to zero WILL change the strategy for TDB more than FPDW simply because hands with one or more deuces in them won't be affected by a change in the royal in a DW game. Even if you figure you don't hit enough royals, changing your strategy by setting royals pay to zero will cost you big time. Who said anything about a strategy change? I was just comparing two VP games that seem to get a lot of mention on this site.  I could have chosen any games, but I thought these two would interest the most people.   A dollar player who claims to be 7 Stars ($1 million coin-in a year minimum) is going to hit 4 or 5 royals a year --- plus a similar number at Noir casinos. If you play $5 games you only need to hit one royal to reach 7 Stars, but playing with a $1000 loss limit and a $2000 win limit on a $5 TDB machine is ludicrous. Often you can only play ten minutes before you're done for the day --- with no chance at all of reaching $1 million coin in a year even if you play way more than recreational players normally do, and even more than professional players do. Well, then I guess Caesars just anointed me a 7Star for some reason. For several years, for that matter. I was actually a Tier II last year - 200k Tier. That's $2 Million coin-in (scary thought), unless that was just by aclaimation, too.  Maybe I should cancel my Vegas trip for the Seven Star Signature Event in September this year. Anyway, how I play, what I play, how I acheive my Tier status and where I set my money management strategy is my business. I really don't need your 'claims to be' or 'no chance at all" comments, thank you. I am not sure where you got those numbers from for Loss and Win Limit, unless it was from another post that I did as an example to try and help someone else understand my approach. (UPDATE: I found the post where I mentioned a $1000 loss and $2000 win limit. I was answering a specific question from Cook 1947 in the 'Comp Meals" thread, and I was using it as an example).Helping instead of criticizing - interesting concept.    Since FPDW largely doesn't exist for higher than quarters (other than at Skyline in Henderson --- with old coin-dropper machines and no slot club --- but it does have 10-coin quarter FPDW) comparing quarter FPDW with dollar TDB is apples and oranges. I said nothing about denominations, I only spoke about pay tables and credits. Apply it to nickel machines if you wish - the math is the math.  I would recommend that, in the future,  you read posts more thoroughly before you fire off your wisdom.   

[BillyJoe]

I think you got your Ed's crossed billyjoe.

Sorry - my bad.  Was thinking Ed the Cat.

[Tedlark]

No worries billyjoe, Eduardo takes enough heat here anyway so I thought I would just do the neighborly thing. And Eduardo I'd really appreciate it if you keep to yourself the fact that we are neighbors? Thanks for understanding.  For those of you, like me, who have committed Blazing Saddles to memory the above needs no explanation. Anyone care for more Schnitzengrooden?

[Eduardo]

Tedlark Johnson is right about Billyjoe Johnson being right about his mistake.

[Tedlark]

I love you Eduardo Johnson, is it true that you people are, gifted?