Money Management

[davidearl]

[QUOTE=FloridaPhil][quote]  The big advantage of money management (wind goals/loss limits) is the reduction in the amount of play. The is very important when playing negative return games. A person leaves the casino much sooner than they would do otherwise which reduces the amount of money they risk. The more one plays negative return games the more they can expect to lose.  
 
   How true, think about all those days you kept feeding the machine, hoping things would turn around and they didn't.  [/QUOTE]Your response is a non sequitur. Having losing sessions continue is just one of the possibilities.Even those of us who only play positive games have had days where we keep losing, losing, losing and it never turned around. We have also had days where we were losing big --- and then hit a couple of jackpots and ended up winners. Stop loss limits will stop both of these. They will keep you from losing really big today, and they will keep you from hitting late jackpots and making a comeback. Overall, stop loss limits do nothing. Stop loss limits are based on the assumption that today's score is something special. It isn't. Today's score is just one data point on this year's score --- which is just one data point on your lifetime score. It really doesn't matter if you lost $1000 on January 2 and won $2000 on February 9 --- or won $2000 on January 2 and lost $1000 on February 9. They both add up to a $1000 win. Which day was plus and which day was minus is totally irrelevant.SM's post a few days ago was spot on. I take it a bit further than he did, however. I believe your stop loss limit while playing a negative game should be less than one penny! And if you ever exceed that loss limit playing a negative game, stop playing immediately! And assuming you are playing within your bankroll, there is no need for a stop loss when you're playing a positive game.There are positive games available in most jurisdictions. You just have to find them. Settling for negative games is very expensive.    [/QUOTE]
    Bob, I have to disagree with you on this. I am an advantage player too, but unlike you, I have to budget my gambling money. Most on this thread are in the same boat. You call it a stop loss limits, I call it a stop win/loss budget management system. I budget $100 a day and a stop win/loss helps me stay within my budget. I don't claim it helps me make more money, it just helps keep me within my budget. When I win or lose $100 I leave.    I have never seen a machine with a positive pay table. Most are something like this. 99.54% return, comps and points bring it up to maybe, 99.74% return. It only becomes a positive return with free play. If I play until the freeplay is gone, I am again playing a 99.74% return game, and can expect a negative return for the day, if I continue to pound the keys. Again a stop win/loss budget management system helps me stay within my budget.      Dave   

[BobDancer]

Post unable to migrate

[BillyJoe]

[QUOTE=FloridaPhil][quote]  The big advantage of money management (wind goals/loss limits) is the reduction in the amount of play. The is very important when playing negative return games. A person leaves the casino much sooner than they would do otherwise which reduces the amount of money they risk. The more one plays negative return games the more they can expect to lose.  
 
   How true, think about all those days you kept feeding the machine, hoping things would turn around and they didn't.  [/QUOTE]
Stop loss limits are based on the assumption that today's score is something special. It isn't. Today's score is just one data point on this year's score --- which is just one data point on your lifetime score. It really doesn't matter if you lost $1000 on January 2 and won $2000 on February 9 --- or won $2000 on January 2 and lost $1000 on February 9. They both add up to a $1000 win. Which day was plus and which day was minus is totally irrelevant.
[/QUOTE]
Thanks for your post, Bob. I believe that it strikes at the heart of where our opinions differ with regard to money management and a recreational VP player.
I will use your numbers from your above post. If I get on an airplane, and take a trip somewhere to play VP for say three days, I will have a bankroll to play on, say the $2000 you mentioned above. If I have no stop-loss set for myself, and loss the $2000 the first day, I am done. I am miserable the rest of my trip, and I had no fun.
If I stop on day one at a $1000 loss, I still have funds to play the remaining days. I may lose the remaining $1000, and the results are the same, a $2000 loss, but at least I was able to play during the days of my trip. That makes it VERY relevant.  
Sure, we all like to win, but for a recreational player, enjoyment while on a gaming trip is the first priority. I, personally, enjoy myself more when I have funds to play with during the trip.  

[FloridaPhil]

Video Poker is a completely different game to the Bob Dancers of the world and recreational players.  That's like comparing sport fishing to commercial fishing.  Both want to catch fish, but the motivation and goals of the two are very different.   This is a good thing because if everyone refused to play less than100% casino games, there wouldn't be any casinos, Bob would have to go back to being a database administrator and I would be stuck playing with golf... 

[davidearl]

Thanks for your reply, Bob. I am a strong player with a winning track record and I do calculate that way at my local casinos, Soaring Eagle, and Saganing Eagles Landing. See my reports on these casinos in Video Poker Games. And losing more than $100 a day would not be financially disastrous. Indeed, I have spent as much as $1000 a day on a great promo. I just love it when a casino says they will cover your losses!First of all,
strong players calculate differently than you are here. Let’s say your free
play averages 0.40% of coin-in. (I pulled that number out of the air. I don’t
know what casino or even what state you are talking about. But we need to use
some number to talk about and if it is less than 0.26% the game is negative and
hence unplayable). That gives you a 100.14% game. This is a VERY skinny edge
--- but it’s possible that that’s the best you can get. There are posters on
this forum who claim they can’t get close to that number.

 

To find out
what the free play rate is you need to keep good records and do some simple
math. It also helps if you and some friends exchange information on this in
order to get more data more quickly. Sometimes it’s not a simple percentage. It
may well be something like 0.8% if you lose and 0.05% if you win. Some casinos
figure things that way. The best you can get is an educated guess as to what
the free play rate is. And it can change at any time. But making this educated
guess is necessary to determine which casino has the best game and whether that
game is playable or not.

 

In my view, using
our example figures, you are playing a 100.14% game all the time. Your play
today is earning free play in the future. Even with this advantage, it’s true
that you will lose most days. That’s the nature of video poker. Hopefully your
occasional royals will overcome your frequent losses.

 

Your budget
seems to be $100 per day. I can see why someone would need to do this. I also
believe that if losing more than $100 per day is financially disastrous for
you, you have far bigger monetary concerns and being in a casino at all is a
mistake.

 

Like it or not,
gambling is a luxury. It takes bankroll / wealth to play the game. Even those
of us who play positive games have long and ugly negative swings all too often.
If you’re playing negative games, these swings are longer and uglier.

 

My money
management rules are as follows:

1.    If you don’t have the advantage, don’t
play.

2.    If you don’t have the bankroll to
survive normal swings, don’t play. (Use Video Poker for Winners to get a
good idea of the swings for any game.)

3.    Otherwise, play as much and as long as
you like assuming you are playing alertly.

 

These rules
are far more useful than arbitrary fixed dollar amounts that don’t take into
consideration which game you are playing. In the example Dave gave, he was talking about Jacks
or Better, which has a relatively low variance. BillyJoe talks about playing Triple
Double Bonus, which has a VERY high variance. If you are using the same “stop
win or stop loss” figures for both games, you are fooling yourself.


        I drive a expedite cargo van, and the casinos I was referring to are in places my travels take me to. IA, IN, IL, OH, WI, MO, AR, MS, AZ, and NM. My "travel Agent" has yet to send me to Vegas.   I don't count future freeplay at these casinos, because I sometimes go months, or years between visits. So I only count freeplay in hand. Also, when I play a game like JOB, I'm usually there most of the night. TDB, 1 or 2 hrs. I don't mind short nights, especially when I win! I seldom have more than $2000 with me, and I'm gone as long as 3 weeks. So I budget the money for 3 weeks.     Dave 

[royal flush]

bob put it best for us advantage players, however for recreational players whom playing is entertainment set a "budget"either for daily or trip, and do NOT play money that you cant afford to lose

[sam434343]

Floridaphil, I agree with what you said, Two different ships/boats pass each other in ocean each toots there horn to each other and waves at each other but they are on two different courses,but are in the same ocean, and if something bad(sinking or what ever) happens the other would probally try and help the others (Bob) but the other boat is just to have fun (yes probally drinking) other boat is a working fishing boat. Okay i am not writer but if you get this you know what i am talking about. Sam

[Burtwithau]

  
 Your response is a non sequitur. Having losing sessions continue is just one of the possibilities.Even those of us who only play positive games have had days where we keep losing, losing, losing and it never turned around. We have also had days where we were losing big --- and then hit a couple of jackpots and ended up winners. Stop loss limits will stop both of these. They will keep you from losing really big today, and they will keep you from hitting late jackpots and making a comeback. Overall, stop loss limits do nothing. Stop loss limits are based on the assumption that today's score is something special. It isn't. Today's score is just one data point on this year's score --- which is just one data point on your lifetime score. It really doesn't matter if you lost $1000 on January 2 and won $2000 on February 9 --- or won $2000 on January 2 and lost $1000 on February 9. They both add up to a $1000 win. Which day was plus and which day was minus is totally irrelevant.I can respect your professional opinion as your game is different than mine, in that I don't base my livelihood on my play.  Being a recreational player I play for sheer ENJOYMENT.  I ENJOY playing for the occasional wins so in a sense my game means that today's score IS SPECIAL TO ME.  I am sure you can respect and appreciate our differences.