Recreational Strategy #1

[FloridaPhil]

OK here goes. I'm going to post some of the more interesting recreational strategies we have tried.  Some of them are strange.  All of them have worked at some time or another (luck happens). I kept very good records on this particular strategy and it produced the longest winning streak I have ever had.  It has one major flaw...  It's a less than max coin strategy and when you hit a one coin Royal it's pretty depressing.  The strategy is commonly called "Frugal Video Poker".  It involves starting with one coin then increasing your coin the amount of your previous winning hand.  If no win happens, you stay at one coin.  If you win four or more coins you go to max coins, then return to one coin after the next zilch hand.  I played this way for about 6 months and found that it worked best with Deuces Wild.  DW is very exciting and it seems to have mini-streaks that make this strategy work much better than with JB or DDB.  In 2012 at the end of a 6 month period of time, I remained even.  I was up over $3,000 at one point, but then disaster struck.    We hit two one coin Royals in one day and after that the train seemed to come off the tracks. Your money comes when you are playing max coins and draw quad deuces for $1,000.  I got a number of these over the period which is why I was up so much at one point.   Actually, I determined you would probably be better off just playing .50 straight up except for the fact that the DW $1 odds in our local casino are so much better than .25 or .50.    I'm posting this not to recommend that anyone play this way, just for the sake of discussion.  I tried it and I liked it.  I may even try it again some day if I get the nerve... 

[jim18]

Well FloridaPhil, thanks for revealing your gambling system.  If you broke even on this system, then it must be a good system as you are playing a negative game, right?Has anyone done a study that compares the results of betting one credit with the dollar denomination compared to betting five credits at the quarter denomination.  Or what about playing multiple hands, with five credits at the nickle or dime level?Last month I was playing dream card, at full credits.  I played enough hands until I had 10 winning hands at the five cent level.  Then I played out the 10 hands at the dime level.  In theory, I would then have played 10 hands at the 25 cents level, once I had won on 10 hands at the dime level.  However, I hit a royal flush on three hands while playing on the dime level.  I was mad that I had to stop and get a gaming tax form on just over $1,200.Two months ago, I was playing a version of multi-strike in which you can bet up to 20 credits per level.  So, I started out playing 80 nickels.  Then, whenever I got a hit that was equal to three times my bet (over 240 credits) I would move up to dimes.  I would start out with 40 dimes, and as I had winning hands, I would increase my bet until I finally got to 80 dimes wagered.  One time I hit four of a kind on the top level with 80 dimes bet.  The result was just over 10,000 credits.As you can see I like to increase my bet based on past performances, just as you are doing.  What is disappointing is the number of times I will get a large win of 5,000 or more credits while playing at nickels.  At times like that I wish I had a large bankroll that allowed me to play for 25 cents a credit.

[FloridaPhil]

Most professional players would look at this system and not understand why anyone would play less than 5 coins and give up 2%. The obvious reason would be if the pay schedule was significantly great at a higher denomination, as is the case at the Tampa Hard Rock.  Interestingly enough, the Indians even remove the one coin buttons from the VP machines in the High Roller Casino where the VP odds are much better. 
The other reason is that recreational players want to extend their play.  To most recreational players, extending play is more important than maximizing wins.   We have limited budgets, either out of necessity or for psychological reasons.  If I walked out of the casino everytime I got up $100 I would win more money, but I wouldn't play much either.
Playing one coin also reduces your winnings and in the case of a Royal represents a significant potential loss.   On the other hand, playing with this system allows me to extend my $300 budget for 2-3 hours a session and at the same time gives me a shot at a max coin dollar jackpot.   I don't play this way too often anymore.  I have a new system that I'm happier with.   I love talking about and testing new VP systems.   Most of them work the first time or two, then fall off the cliff.  As they say "There are no bad plays if you win!"  Disclaimer: Gambling is a long term loser (unless you're Bob Dancer) and should be undertaken for recreational purposes only. 
 

[New2vp]

Most professional players would look at this system and not understand why anyone would play less than 5 coins and give up 2%. The obvious reason would be if the pay schedule was significantly great at a higher denomination, as is the case at the Tampa Hard Rock.Phil, I presume that since you posted this under Strategy and not the new Recreational Play category that you won't be offended if someone disagrees with you here.  It seems to me that your second sentence contradicts your first; in the case you cited, there is an increase in the expected EV not a decrease (given the choices between 5 coins at a lower pay schedule and 1 coin at a higher one), so no one is giving up 2% with this choice.  Actually, even when you compare the change between 1 coin and 5 coins at the same pay schedule and use the rule of thumb of 2% for a 4000-coin royal, the difference works out to 1 3/8% (1.375%), which can be mitigated some by making strategy changes.*  For example, with 9/6 Jacks or Better, the actual change in EV is 1.36% and by changing your play strategy, you can reduce this to 1.17%.  I point this out because as you know there is a considerable difference between 2% and something much closer to 1%.*<<The reason for this is that you are not reducing the 800 per coin royal payoff to 0 per coin; it is only being reduced to 250 per coin.>>Your two sentences here also suggest that you know something that is obvious and that "most professional players" don't.  The 5-coin vs. 1-coin argument at a higher pay schedule has been raised many times before the origination of this forum, on this forum, and I dare say probably in a Dancer column or two over the years, so I would presume that "most professional players" do know this, and may in fact not choose to make either play, but would make the higher-EV 1-coin play if forced to make the choice between the two.The other reason is that recreational
players want to extend their play.  To most recreational players,
extending play is more important than maximizing wins.   We have limited
budgets, either out of necessity or for psychological reasons.I appreciate your simplified explanation.  I would guess that there are lots of reasons that different people make different choices about consuming lots of different things including the amount of time that they choose to play video poker, the denomination that they choose to play, and even the time they choose to spend on this forum making informed or not-so-informed posts.  I think I recall that Bob Dancer's college degree was Economics where the idea of different people having different preferences is studied.  I presume based on what I've read this degree was undergraduate and a while ago. Although there have been many advances developed since he got his degree, the central premise that "different folks" have "different strokes" has not changed much and predates both video poker and even Sly and the Family Stone.  I would think that Bob's OJT in teaching many recreational players since his degree acquisition might give him a bit more insight into what makes people tick from a vp perspective, maybe even more than you have.  But I admit my assessment is based only on what I've seen you post here and that I can't fully comprehend the extent of your knowledge.  Nevertheless, I enjoy learning about other people's points of view, so while I might disagree occasionally with some of what you post, I don't think I would ever suggest that you shouldn't be able to post in Strategy or any of the categories here on the forum.Feel free to disagree.  Other ventures unfortunately compete for my time more than they used to, so I don't post here as often.  Thus, if I don't respond further, please don't take any inference from that other than I may not have the time.

[FloridaPhil]

Wow!  I did not realize we actually had a new "Recreatonal Play" category.  Thanks for the heads up!   I hope I'm not talking to myself all day... 

[shadowman]

Most professional players would look at this system and not understand why anyone would play less than 5 coins and give up 2%.
Most "professional players" wouldn't care what anyone did playing a negative game. Please folks, get off the pro vs. recreational arguments. If you want to play a certain way then do it. The pros don't care how you play. Why do you even bring them up? All it is going to do is lead to conflicts.

[FloridaPhil]

I agree.  See you in the recreational play forum.  Thanks!