Take a look at this...

[BillyJoe]

BillyJoel, you haven't read anything like that on this forum. Please don't make things up.
Ah, another baseless claim of how I fantasize on the Forum.
 
Shadow - please reference the following post by Bob Dancer... http://forum.videopoker.com/forum/forum ... =5046&PN=3
 
If you need to, you can search on the words "hogwash" and "nonsense".
 
Ok.. Sorry, Webman - I am done.

[shadowman]

Billyjoe, nowhere in your linked thread does anyone say ...
 
"... it is OK to just pound away, regardless of the losses sustained and the bankroll evaporated"


 
You made it up and then you try to defend your statement by referring to something different.  

[BillyJoe]

BillyJoe, nowhere in your linked thread does anyone say ...
 
"... it is OK to just pound away, regardless of the losses sustained and the bankroll evaporated"


 
You made it up and then you try to defend your statement by referring to something different.  
True, the linked thread referred to my original comment in hijacking this thread (sorry again, WebMan) about being criticized for discussing Money Management, which Bob Dancer and others have stated is nonsense.
 
I did not know that you were referring to my other comment about playing positive EV games without regard to Money Management. I do not know if I could find a specific reference for that, but I certainly inferred from many posts that it was the accepted approach among APs and Pros, since the 'math' is in your favor. Hence, my comment. If I misunderstood - I apologize.    

[shadowman]

billyjoe, one of the tenets of professional play is smart bankroll management. That was the part that you got wrong. It is never ok to play at levels higher than your bankroll allows.
 
Your approach to trips is right in line with this philosophy on a smaller scale.

[DaBurglar]

I waited (and waited and waited......and wai.....ah never mind) before just jumping in and responding to the ORIGINAL theme and intent (and content) of this thread, that of the seeming "prep" work and procedure that goes into getting VP machines ready to be played by the suckers (er, players, sorry) like MOI..... Over the years, especially the past 5 or 6 years, I have accumulated through various people I know and hang out with (or people I used to know and hang out with) a whole smorgasboard of anecdotes, second hand accounts (and third hand accounts), as well as my own personal experience and observations, that seem to give evidence to the perception that Video Poker machines CAN, and sometimes ARE, programmed (or set up, rigged, fixed, take your pick of semantics) to take or even give out win percentages that exceed the expected predictable returns indicated by the visible paytables, specifically by influencing what exactly gets dealt in terms of cards / hands.... For many, MANY years, i scoffed at and ridiculed people who believed this, as I used to have complete and full faith in how video poker SEEMED to be set up, as well as faith in the straightforward gaming regulations of Nevada.....Nevada's regulations for Video Poker are emulated pretty close by most states, but NOT completely 100% emulated, and in many tribal situations, there are (according to my two friends who have worked both at Foxwoods and in Vegas/Reno establishments over the last 30plus years)  subtle yet significant  differences in how things work. After reading this thread, the cited works, and everyone;s comments, I noticed that how the set up procedure works is eerily similar to several of my friends who have told me how video poker machines can, in fact, be set up to deal (or not deal) certain hands, or even cards, in a manner that goes outside of expected straight up random drawings....I have had people describe specific types of "set up menus", or "user menus" that can override the standard generic set up that comes from the factory and that casinos are supposed to generally have operating at any given time.....that casinos can "customize" the flow and frequency of hands to accomodate business needs or set up specialized types of games.   Only recently, given the light of my experiences in AC and the economy, and reports from other family and friends who also play, have i begun to give credence or consideration to these second hand reports from people. I've laid out in other posts how I think this might be perpetrated if it is in fact true (even a little true....)   I dont want to believe this, but I also dont want to be so close minded and stubboirn that I continue to be a fool in light of reality. Video Poker PAYTABLES are supposed to be the one and ONLY way, the final "WORD" if you will, on determining the payout/win percentage of a particular game.  However, given the way things are and the way people are, and in light of even material like what was cited in this thread, it seems obvious to me that if someone or some company chooses, they can go beyond the paytable to influence the performance and payout of a video poker game/machine.  The actual hands dealt can in fact be manipulated or altered to suit specific needs or circumstances or goals.....they are not supposed to, clearly NOT supposed to be unless clearly indicated to players in the context of a specific GAME offered by a casino.....but as we all know, just because something is illegal or wrong, doesnt mean it cant or does not happen.   And the assumed (ASSUMED) penalty we all take heart in, that a casino would NEVER risk its license for a short term gain, is not any where NEAR the deterrent we all think it is, of this I am MORE CERTAIN than the actual cheating we speculate on.....even if a gaming control board did discover rigged VP machines, they would go to great lengths and means to address the problem via other remedies or punishments BEFORE even starting the process of license revocation.   I have found out, at least as far as New Jersey is concerned, that taking AWAY a license from an established and going business concern is a long and daunting task, which partially explains why states are usually so STINGY in issuing a license in the first place, or why it takes so long and is so difficult and so laborious to apply and obtain a license in the first place, because once it is issued, the business now has RIGHTS which it heretofore did not have and simply taking back the license is NOT a easy or quick thing!   To say nothing of course, of the economic stakes and potential loss if a license holder is KILLED off quickly!

[jazzman12]

I can only respond to the previous post based on my experience and relationships with friends/family/acquaintances that have worked for the past 20+ years at Harrah's Corp. (now Caesar Corp.), but I am about as confident as the sun rising in the east and setting in the west that there currently is not, and never has been [at least in past 20 years], any manipulation of  RNG for any of their Class 3 video poker machines (not factoring a possible rogue and criminal employee who may have acted unilaterally) - and this even includes their "indian" property in Cherokee, NC.I know current employees and have known past employees at all levels in Harrah's in multiple properties across the country (from slot service, to slot tech, to slot manager, to host, to VP), and 100% of the time their responses and information shared has supported this position.Now, I can not know for sure if any sort of manipulation occurs at any casino with a state gaming license in the US. However, with the companies that have multiple properties in multiple states, I would have to believe what I know from Harrah's is also applicable there.Even non-believers would have to accept the logic of the following:Why would Caesar's Corp risk losing every gaming license they own (and certain bankruptcy) to manipulate a small number of video poker machines that might end up adding .0001% to their bottom line?99.99% of video poker machines are guaranteed money makers for the casino. Factoring in all available paytables and imperfect play from players, this ends up being around .06 per $1 played. Why would I risk manipulating a few random video poker machines so that I could possibly get 6.001 cents per dollar return company-wide, when I am absolutely legally guaranteed 6 cents per dollar return?If Harrah's actually had some sort of corporate policy to manipulate payouts for even higher profits from unsuspecting players, they would certainly choose slots over video poker machines. Slots would be much easier to manipulate, wouldn't raise players' suspicions nearly as much, and would simply represent far more reward for the potentially catastrophic risk involved. Currently, at a typical Caesar's property, slots represent approx. 85% of coin-in on electronic machines with video poker at less than 15%. Video poker just doesn't represent enough players or profit for the casino to even care about these machines 99% of the time. If a casino wanted more profit from a gaming station (say the state limits a certain property to 2000 machines max), they would simply replace the video poker machine with a slot machine [which is what many casinos are trending towards recently] or reprogram the machine to a more casino-friendly paytable.Could an independently (non-corporate parent) owned casino or indian casino possibly be doing some video poker manipulation? Perhaps, but I would still say the likelihood is incredibly small, even though I wouldn't play video poker in places like these for a variety of reasons.Beyond all of this, the potential PR cost would be exponentially greater than any potential fines or capital cost. Even the pursuit of one random gaming manipulation violation at one random property in Atlantic City, would not only open Caesar's to potential revocation of every gaming license they own, but the bad PR and media impact/psychological effect of Caesar's Corp. even potentially being a crooked company would destroy their business.Bottom line: If you are a video poker player and have even the most miniscule doubt that the machine you are playing, at the casino you are playing, is fair and legitimate (based on a Class 3 RNG) - then you either are a d@mn fool or a compulsive gambler.

[BillyJoe]

First, my sincere apologies for straying off-track on this thread with Shadow.



 
Second, I do believe that the slots ARE being 'reduced' in pay-off frequency, even in the larger 'chains' of casinos (where I play the most) like MGM Int'l and Caesars/Harrah's. I believe this is occurring in the mid-tier denominations, like $5 machines. The conventional wisdom was that the the payout percentage would increase in slots as the denoms rose (a $5 slot hits something more often than a quarter slot), since it takes less play at a higher denom to reach a casino's machine dollar goal versus a lower denom. I have experienced, however, over the last few years, fewer favorable results from $5 and $10 slots.
 
Where it is reveled, in particular, is in slots that have a progressive payout at a lower level (not the top jackpot) The two-coin Quick Hits three-reel $5 slot comes to mind. If you bet max coins, and you get the three Quick Hits on the line, you win the big jackpot - $50k ($25k @ Caesars). If, however, you get three Quick Hits scattered, not all on the line, you get the metered lower jackpot, which starts @ $1000, and grows with continued play. Routinely, these types of machines would hit before $1,100, and often I have played them where they would hit within 20 hands of a payout. Now, it is not unusual to see that smaller JP at $1,400-$2,000 on these types of machines.
 
I dabble in slots when the VP gets cold, along with some table games. I still believe that VP is the best bet in the casino.   

[DaBurglar]

Well my choices are to either (a) Keep shoveling in money and losing at absurd rates in AC, but smile and take solace in "the absolute certainty" that the VP games gobbling my money are FAIR and LEGIT and "up  to snuff".......OR (b) Be a damn fool and a compulsive gambler while continuing to "sound the alarm!"  No doubt, a crappy choice to be sure.....  Anyone care to explain how, in jazzman's righteous view of the gambling "INDUSTRY", justice always prevails?  How would a casino (or casino empire) get busted for certain?  How does the linear progression of perfect justice he outlines come to fruition?   I think it is a fantasy, just like the fact that the vast majority of homicides each year go unsolved FOREVER..... The system is perfect on paper, the regs and rules are logical and make sense, and do provide fools and compulsive gamblers (like me) with some measure of solace, until we step back and look at our results and the results of others.....how the system is actually worked and the rules applied is far from perfect.   Politics, human foibles and weakness among many other outside elements come to bear and play in this mix.....and what happens in one state as regards casinos does NOT always translate into unilateral and pervasive effects in all other states, that is certain.  Consider MGM in Atlantic City....they were forced to remove themselves from Borgata's daily operations and have their ownership share put into a form of financial "suspension" for a period of four years, simply because one of their shareholders / partners in Macau was related to a guy with ALLEGED organized crime ties.   Yet Nevada, and all the other states where MGM does business, did NOTHING (in fact they could not have cared less....AC was just being hypocritically vigilant to sooth the worries of in state watchdog groups who have been seeking New Jersey's ultimate divorce from the "evils" of gambling)    It's a crock and a half .....  No seriously, I'll buy jazzman's sermon, I really will....part of me wants to, and part of me used to think and feel exactly as he writes.....but as long as I and people I know and share with continue to lose at rates worse than slots, and at rates that exceed 3 standard deviations from expected norms, I will also continue to bellyache and whine on this board for the benefit of anyone else who experiences the same.

[Lucky Larry]

Either that or it could be referring to a payout % that could be indicated next to each pay table available. Also make sure this is a class 3 machine if it's video poker. I look forward to hearing more.

Eduardo,

This past trip Sweet C and I were playing late Wednesday night and a slot tech comes over to the spin poker machine next to us, He opens it up and begins going through programs writing down information from the screen on a clip board. I asked the tech, who i've talked to many times, what he was doing. He called me over and shared he was gathering information on which games on the machine were being played the least. This data was to be used to delete the least played program and add a new game - probably DW Dbl B as recommended by the casino consultant. The screen included data on the amount of $ coin-in, pay-outs, casino % hold, % game return, etc. He scrolled through the games to show me the list of game options, pre-programmed, on the machine. Existing game options were highlighted bright green and game options not being used were a lighter green.   He stated the consultant would use the data to determine which game option to select and the percentage return (pay table) to select. When I asked about pay tables, I was told all pay tables for all the game options were already programmed into the software to allow the casino to assign different pay tables for different denominations.

I have always found these opportunities to talk to tech very informative. Being friendly to the casino staff seems to always pay off with some amount of information. This is also the second time I've heard about the Isle's casino consultant making recommendations. Would love to meet and talk to him.

[ko king]

Well my choices are to either (a) Keep shoveling in money and losing at absurd rates in AC, but smile and take solace in "the absolute certainty" that the VP games gobbling my money are FAIR and LEGIT and "up  to snuff".......OR
 
(b) Be a damn fool and a compulsive gambler while continuing to "sound the alarm!"
 
 
No doubt, a crappy choice to be sure.....
 
 
Anyone care to explain how, in jazzman's righteous view of the gambling "INDUSTRY", justice always prevails?  How would a casino (or casino empire) get busted for certain?  How does the linear progression of perfect justice he outlines come to fruition?   I think it is a fantasy, just like the fact that the vast majority of homicides each year go unsolved FOREVER.....
 
The system is perfect on paper, the regs and rules are logical and make sense, and do provide fools and compulsive gamblers (like me) with some measure of solace, until we step back and look at our results and the results of others.....how the system is actually worked and the rules applied is far from perfect.   Politics, human foibles and weakness among many other outside elements come to bear and play in this mix.....and what happens in one state as regards casinos does NOT always translate into unilateral and pervasive effects in all other states, that is certain.  Consider MGM in Atlantic City....they were forced to remove themselves from Borgata's daily operations and have their ownership share put into a form of financial "suspension" for a period of four years, simply because one of their shareholders / partners in Macau was related to a guy with ALLEGED organized crime ties.   Yet Nevada, and all the other states where MGM does business, did NOTHING (in fact they could not have cared less....AC was just being hypocritically vigilant to sooth the worries of in state watchdog groups who have been seeking New Jersey's ultimate divorce from the "evils" of gambling)    It's a crock and a half .....
 
 
No seriously, I'll buy jazzman's sermon, I really will....part of me wants to, and part of me used to think and feel exactly as he writes.....but as long as I and people I know and share with continue to lose at rates worse than slots, and at rates that exceed 3 standard deviations from expected norms, I will also continue to bellyache and whine on this board for the benefit of anyone else who experiences the same.


I'd like to believe it's all legit and it may possibly be, I highly doubt it and don't put much stock in the " why would they do it" line because it's obvious, MONEY. Very few big corporations have stellar track records and have proven time and time again they are willing to do whatever it may take to bend and sometimes even break the rules. I know some say there is no way they would want to risk losing their gaming license but I can't think of one single casino that's ever happened to.  Each state has it's own independent gaming commission and they're not huge operations. Every state that has casinos enjoys and depends on the revenue created by gambling, even if the gaming commission found something I doubt it would be advertised, that wouldn't make good business sense. I've played vp for about 20 years now and have only suspected something wasn't quite right in 1 casino. Over those 20 years I played a lot of vp in 3 different states, in 2 of the states they have several different casinos and truth be told I have no reason to complain because I came close to or exceeded the advertised paytables of 98.98%. I did however play in one state that only has a couple of casinos that are very far apart. I spent 3 years playing 98.98% paytables and never even came close to those numbers, fact is I averaged 95.33% and don't think any person who plays a lot of vp could have done any better. While that 3.65% may not sound like much on the surface it can and is a huge difference when it comes to actual dollars for just one player, now multiply that times thousands of players. I have complete confidence that I could go back to that casino and get the same exact results, I also can say that even the likes of Shadowman or Bob Dancer himself would fare no better. Count me as one of the people who believe it's not all legit, common sense tells me it can't be because when it comes to making money I can't think of any industry that's clean as a whistle.