Take a look at this...

[DaBurglar]

ko king's post, like jazzman's, was well written and reasoned.  And while ko king appears to agree with my view point more than jazzman's, ko king's evidence still is NOT what I am actually talking about.   a 95% return on a game that should be 98.5% is not good, but is not actually evidence of rigging or fraud or dishonesty or whatever term you want to apply for what I am talking about..... The games I have seen and played in AC over the last several years (say, from 2010 right up to today), the games where I am now seriously doubting legit set up and play, I have seen and experienced HORRIFIC rates of return....likewise with many of my family and friends who also have played at the same places (indeed, the same MACHINES) in AC over this same time frame.  In fact to call it a "rate of return" is misleading, because we have experienced what amounts to total LOSS of the bankrolls played with, but for legitimacy sake, I will call the rate of return (leading up to the eventual total disappearance of the bankrolls) to be about 60%.....YES, SIXTY......6 0....... I am talking about VP machines that just EAT your money, hitting and returning almost NOTHING, over thousands and thousands of hands.  I am talking about dead hand rates (zero value hands) that exceed 85%, repeatedly, within multiple sessions played by DIFFERENT players......it just smells really bad. But the proverbial "wrecked car syndrome" takes over, where you cant take your eyes away from a accident scene, you go back and play these seemingly rigged machines because you just cannot believe, like jazzman, that they are rigged, that a big company would or could do such a thing....and loe and behold, the SAME calamity befalls you during the VP session and you lose horribly again and again......then your friend tries because he or she doesnt believe you, and it hapens to them!  then their wife or son or mother or sister plays, and it happens.   Meanwhile, across the casino, someone else you know is in fact playing a machine that does hit and pay at a normal expected rate..... My premise is they would NEVER rig all the VP machines, not at the same time anyway, that would be totally stupid.....I believe they may rig as many as a third of the machines at any given time..... But again, I have related in past posts all I have learned and found out about the New jersey gaming commission, and I still cant see HOW a casino that did or does rig VP machines would ever really be caught and/or punished.   The gaming commission is just too spread thin and too overworked to bother listening to complaints about individual machines, or to send agents out after individual VP machines. One thing jazzman said that is true is how small VP is now in the grand scheme of things, but it is NOT so small as to be ignored or to have no impact on the bottom line.....these days, casinos and their staff/management are just trying to SURVIVE, at least in AC, and the extra scratch generated from rigged vp machines might just be the difference between surviving another quarter, or being thrown into the bay!    seriously.....

[sam434343]

Random number generator was created by man,if created by man can also be manipulated (by man)to look like it is doing the right thing, i not saying that they are being manipulated,but you do the math.  Big Casino brings in million/hundreds of million which in turn state gets million/ten of millions in tax revenue, federal goverment get millions/tens of millions in tax revenue and the money that come in from casino pays to state/goverment pays the commission that regulates the casinos, boy if i was business i wouldnt tell on them i would be out of work, and also probaly find me in desert fertelizing catus. All of what has been said here can be complete hogwash or could it be true, i think human nature leans both ways. And there is no changing that. 

[ko king]

ko king's post, like jazzman's, was well written and reasoned.  And while ko king appears to agree with my view point more than jazzman's, ko king's evidence still is NOT what I am actually talking about.   a 95% return on a game that should be 98.5% is not good, but is not actually evidence of rigging or fraud or dishonesty or whatever term you want to apply for what I am talking about.....
 
The games I have seen and played in AC over the last several years (say, from 2010 right up to today), the games where I am now seriously doubting legit set up and play, I have seen and experienced HORRIFIC rates of return....likewise with many of my family and friends who also have played at the same places (indeed, the same MACHINES) in AC over this same time frame.  In fact to call it a "rate of return" is misleading, because we have experienced what amounts to total LOSS of the bankrolls played with, but for legitimacy sake, I will call the rate of return (leading up to the eventual total disappearance of the bankrolls) to be about 60%.....YES, SIXTY......6 0.......
 
I am talking about VP machines that just EAT your money, hitting and returning almost NOTHING, over thousands and thousands of hands.  I am talking about dead hand rates (zero value hands) that exceed 85%, repeatedly, within multiple sessions played by DIFFERENT players......it just smells really bad.
 
But the proverbial "wrecked car syndrome" takes over, where you cant take your eyes away from a accident scene, you go back and play these seemingly rigged machines because you just cannot believe, like jazzman, that they are rigged, that a big company would or could do such a thing....and loe and behold, the SAME calamity befalls you during the VP session and you lose horribly again and again......then your friend tries because he or she doesnt believe you, and it hapens to them!  then their wife or son or mother or sister plays, and it happens.   Meanwhile, across the casino, someone else you know is in fact playing a machine that does hit and pay at a normal expected rate.....
 
My premise is they would NEVER rig all the VP machines, not at the same time anyway, that would be totally stupid.....I believe they may rig as many as a third of the machines at any given time.....
 
But again, I have related in past posts all I have learned and found out about the New jersey gaming commission, and I still cant see HOW a casino that did or does rig VP machines would ever really be caught and/or punished.   The gaming commission is just too spread thin and too overworked to bother listening to complaints about individual machines, or to send agents out after individual VP machines.
 
One thing jazzman said that is true is how small VP is now in the grand scheme of things, but it is NOT so small as to be ignored or to have no impact on the bottom line.....these days, casinos and their staff/management are just trying to SURVIVE, at least in AC, and the extra scratch generated from rigged vp machines might just be the difference between surviving another quarter, or being thrown into the bay!    seriously.....

First off let me say thanks for not trashing my post, now let me be a little more clear about my 95.33% of return. I don't make many post but I play a ton of vp all of which is at the $2 and $5 denomination. In all my years of play I never experienced anything like what I did at this one casino, I even figured out why I was doing so poorly. Like you said 95.33% may not seem so bad until you understand that's based on about $1.9 million dollars of play. You do the math on the difference between the advertised 98.98% and the actual 95.33%, it's a pretty big number and I'm just one player. Most casual players would never have noticed how and why the results were so poor, I did. How did they increase revenue for the casino, "four cards to the flush off the deal", a hand that should occur on average 1 every 36 hands and should be converted to a flush slightly below 20% of the time. I was seeing far more than the average and converting well below the expected rate. I did however hit more royals and straight flushes than the norm, surprise, surprise, kind of makes sense though with all the "four to the flush" draws. The casino did draw a lot of players in because of the amount of royal flushes that were hit there, I had three dealt royals there in 3 years. I made that 95.33% rate of return disappear overnight by returning my play to the same casino I had played at for 15 years and guess what the "four to the flush off the deal" returned to normal there and I don't give it a second thought anymore while playing.

[ginfre]

Suffice to say that when one goes to a Casino to gamble one is accepting a number of possibilities besides the posted odds into the betting equation.  Also, I find playing games here fully not representable of Casino play.  In that Casino play is better.  Here, I cannot move to another machine, however.  That IS a rub in the comparison.  All the conversation, all the descriptions, all the ideas presented will not change the fact that my four day visit to Reno next week (from my home in Las Vegas) will be because I have had better success there.  All conversation notwithstanding.

[sam434343]

Well i dont know how this has to do with all what is said in this post but in some ways i think it does because it has to do with money, and how are goverment and almost every goverment in the world is doing business. This is a documentary show 1hr half long  called  End of the Road : How money became worthless, some of you are going say there trying to sell gold others will see this is what going to happen to our paper money, and is happening right now in the great U.S. of America.

[Vman96]

First off let me say thanks for not trashing my post, now let me be a little more clear about my 95.33% of return. I don't make many post but I play a ton of vp all of which is at the $2 and $5 denomination. In all my years of play I never experienced anything like what I did at this one casino, I even figured out why I was doing so poorly. Like you said 95.33% may not seem so bad until you understand that's based on about $1.9 million dollars of play. You do the math on the difference between the advertised 98.98% and the actual 95.33%, it's a pretty big number and I'm just one player. Most casual players would never have noticed how and why the results were so poor, I did. How did they increase revenue for the casino, "four cards to the flush off the deal", a hand that should occur on average 1 every 36 hands and should be converted to a flush slightly below 20% of the time. I was seeing far more than the average and converting well below the expected rate. I did however hit more royals and straight flushes than the norm, surprise, surprise, kind of makes sense though with all the "four to the flush" draws. The casino did draw a lot of players in because of the amount of royal flushes that were hit there, I had three dealt royals there in 3 years. I made that 95.33% rate of return disappear overnight by returning my play to the same casino I had played at for 15 years and guess what the "four to the flush off the deal" returned to normal there and I don't give it a second thought anymore while playing.

What state was this? Not all states/casinos have Class III video poker. Your description is something I'd expect from a Class II machine. There wasn't an electronic bingo card on the machine somewhere, right?

[Lucky Larry]

The Goal of Business:

Like most companies, my company’s goal is to make a profit. We do that in a variety of ways – promotion of certain lines of products, reduction of taxes, reduction of labor costs, reduction of waste, energy efficiency, providing additional ancillary services, etc. .

First and foremost though, we sell several different products to our customers-each with different levels of profit. One product line gives us a small 3-4% profit on each dollar our clients spend. Another group of products/services gives us double to triple that profit per dollar. Since our operational/production expenses are the same for both groups of products we generally try to push our high profit products by promoting them over our lower profit products. Our investors appreciate the higher dividends and the bank appreciates our timely repayment of our loans.   On a side note: as profits increases my salary in return goes up and my bonuses are much greater.   To this end we will continue to reduce the number video poker games and greatly increase and promote the high profit slot machines.

[ko king]

[QUOTE=ko king]

First off let me say thanks for not trashing my post, now let me be a little more clear about my 95.33% of return. I don't make many post but I play a ton of vp all of which is at the $2 and $5 denomination. In all my years of play I never experienced anything like what I did at this one casino, I even figured out why I was doing so poorly. Like you said 95.33% may not seem so bad until you understand that's based on about $1.9 million dollars of play. You do the math on the difference between the advertised 98.98% and the actual 95.33%, it's a pretty big number and I'm just one player. Most casual players would never have noticed how and why the results were so poor, I did. How did they increase revenue for the casino, "four cards to the flush off the deal", a hand that should occur on average 1 every 36 hands and should be converted to a flush slightly below 20% of the time. I was seeing far more than the average and converting well below the expected rate. I did however hit more royals and straight flushes than the norm, surprise, surprise, kind of makes sense though with all the "four to the flush" draws. The casino did draw a lot of players in because of the amount of royal flushes that were hit there, I had three dealt royals there in 3 years. I made that 95.33% rate of return disappear overnight by returning my play to the same casino I had played at for 15 years and guess what the "four to the flush off the deal" returned to normal there and I don't give it a second thought anymore while playing.

What state was this? Not all states/casinos have Class III video poker. Your description is something I'd expect from a Class II machine. There wasn't an electronic bingo card on the machine somewhere, right?[/QUOTE]
I was told by both the casino and the state it was standard Class III video poker so who am I to argue.

[roveer]

I'm happy my post has sparked another spirited debate.  Many good points of view and even some new first hand information from the casino floor. What I can add is that in 2012 my experiences have very much matched that of DaBurglar.  It was an abismal year for VP.  All those really great hits I was posting in 2011 dissapeared.  The big problem was, I was still playing huge amounts and frequently  This led to huge losses.  Low and behold, 2013 and in 1 trip in Feb, the hits started coming back.  Not sure what to make of it, but that's what happened.  Rigged?  who knows, but I pan on seeing the inside of one of these machines in the very near future and will be sure to report anything interesting that I find. Roveer 

[billslim]

I'm happy my post has sparked another spirited debate.  Many good points of view and even some new first hand information from the casino floor. What I can add is that in 2012 my experiences have very much matched that of DaBurglar.  It was an abismal year for VP.  All those really great hits I was posting in 2011 dissapeared.  The big problem was, I was still playing huge amounts and frequently  This led to huge losses.  Low and behold, 2013 and in 1 trip in Feb, the hits started coming back.  Not sure what to make of it, but that's what happened.  Rigged?  who knows, but I pan on seeing the inside of one of these machines in the very near future and will be sure to report anything interesting that I find. Roveer The "inside", although interesting will not be near as interesting as the source code.