What is a Penalty Card?

[razuberii]

Hi Guys,
Would someone please define "penalty card" for me (and maybe give me some examples)?  I looked it up, but... I don't understand the meaning. 
 
The definition: A discarded card from a dealt VP hand, whose
absence from the deck has a negative effect on
secondary redraw hands.
 
Thank you.

[shadowman]

First, you need to understand that discards are NOT available on the draw. An obvious example would be if you were dealt a RF and only held 4 cards. You could not get the same card back and hence could never get the RF. That particular discard could be called a RF penalty.
 
The same thing happens in many other cases. If you hold 4 cards for a RF and throw away the 5 of the same suit (a flush), then your discard reduces your chances for hitting a flush. You only have 8 cards left to make the flush rather than 9. This same type of situation happens a lot when holding high cards in JOB or bonus games ...  you often discard something that reduces your chances of getting a flush or straight.
 
So, anything you discard that eliminates one or more possible paying hands is considered a "penalty" card. Let me know if need more examples because there are lots of penalty situations beyond what I just stated.
 

[cddenver]

Hi Guys,
Would someone please define "penalty card" for me (and maybe give me some examples)?  I looked it up, but... I don't understand the meaning. 

 
SHADOWMAN just about covered it.  There are many examples that could be given - here's a simple one to show the concept:
 
Flush Penalty:  Look at two hands -
 
1) K, J, 10 suited (Hearts) plus 6 of Hearts, 2 of Clubs
2) K, J, 10 suited (Spades) plus 6 of Hearts, 2 of Clubs
 
In both cases, you'd keep the 3 to the Royal and drop the two other cards.  Your chance of completing the Royal is the same for both hands, as well as the chance of ending up with a SF, Straight, 3 of a Kind, Two Pair, or High Pair.  In that respect, the two hands are identical in terms of the average return.  The average return is slightly lower on hand (1) than hand (2), though, because you're reducing your chance of ending with a Flush by dropping that 6 of Hearts.  That card is a penalty card in hand (1), but not hand (2).
 
I think that's a good example to show the concept, but not a good "real life" example of penalty cards in action, since in that example having a penalty card in the hand doesn't affect how you'd play the hand.  Same thinking applies for Straight Penalty.  Let us know what game you play and the pay table and I'm sure someone will give an example or two where a penalty card (Flush or Straight) does affect how a dealt hand should be played.
 
Now, *I* have a general question on the subject - are penalty cards considered special plays, or standard plays?  Taking them into account certainly makes it more difficult to learn how to play hands for a given game (special plays in that sense).  On the other hand, learning how to play 'em is important to achieving ER (standard plays in that sense).

[MikeA]

CD,I don't use penalty card strategy "now" though I know that most of the expert players do use it or at least parts of it.  It doesn't add much at all to your ER.  However, if you have the strategy for your preferred games down cold, "why not" study the penalty card strategy and increase your ER slightly?  If you have one of the better simulators, compare the Strategy and "Perfect Play" differences in ER and you'll see what I'm talking about.

[shadowman]

Right you are, Mike. Penalty card considerations often add less than a few hundredths of a percent to the game's return. Unless someone plays a game quite a bit and quite often the benefits are minor indeed. OTOH, I think we all should understand VP technology as well as we can even if we don't use every tool.

[cddenver]

I do take account of penalty cards in my play, but only for the more common dealt hand types where they come into play.  Sorry if I implied that they have a bigger impact on overall play than they do.  In my case I limit my penalty card play to those hands because there's a limit to the number of dealt hands I can keep straight in my head.

[shadowman]

One other issue should be mentioned when it comes to penalty cards. If one chooses to consider penalty cards then they are complicating the analysis of every hand. By the very nature of complicating any task it will lead to more errors. So, it can be argued that considering penalty cards may actually reduce one's ER rather than increasing it.
 
That said, I often use penalty card strategies when I play. Obviously, I wouldn't do this if I thought it reduced my return.

[MikeA]

I hope that I didn't leave the impression that I thought Penalty Card Strategy is not a good strategy or that is should be avoided.  It is good strategy.  But, I think that it is probably the last step in conquering VP maximized play and not something that I would recommend a beginner start out trying to master.It is comparable in a way to Advantage play in Blackjack.  Or at least the card counting part of Advantage BJ play.  Other strategies such as hole carding and shuffle tracking and Ace tracking along with side counts are also parts of Advantage Play in BJ.  Basic Strategy in BJ gives you the benefit of playing at around a 1/2 percent disadvantage.  Once you master basic strategy for all table rules and numbers of decks in the game, the next step is gaining the skill to count cards (at a minimum using an unbalanced count.)  If you play all hands in Blackjack and do not Wong-out in negative conditions, then you will have increased your percentages to the point of having around a 2% advantage over the house (positive expectation).  However, mistakes in counting very often will turn the tables around drastically...much more so than making mistakes in Penalty Card strategy with VP.  In fact, most card counting BJ players do worse at the tables because they are not up to the challenge of concentration in learning FAST counting.  The successful card counter is truly the 1%er.  We estimate that only 1% of the blackjack players know Basic Strategy perfectly and of that 1%, only 1% are really accomplished card counters!  I believe those to be fairly accurate numbers though there will never be a way to confirm them.But, as with VP and Pen Cards, counting is a natural progression in mastering BJ and eventually, I think that players will (and should) make the effort to incorporate Penalty Cards into their strategy.  But it is not something that I would put a high priority on at first.

[cddenver]

One other issue should be mentioned when it comes to penalty cards. If one chooses to consider penalty cards then they are complicating the analysis of every hand. By the very nature of complicating any task it will lead to more errors. So, it can be argued that considering penalty cards may actually reduce one's ER rather than increasing it.
 
That's quite true.  I never thought of it that way.

[shadowman]

MikeA, I agree that penalty card considerations should be way down the list. By the way, I hope we answered the original question without going to far.