SHOWBOAT

[Mikeinri]

I think the machines are likely legit.What bothers me is when people assert they can NEVER be fixed or that no casino would dare fix them because they "will lose their license"Bull****.  The machines HAVE been gaffed-see Larry Volk.  The Venetian HAS been found to have fixed drawings. And exactly NO licenses were lost.Where there is money involved there will always be thieves. I would feel a lot better if Gaming released statements like "this week we opened up X VP machines to check if they are gaffed; they aren't".Has anybody seen this press  release ever?Me neither.

[DaBurglar]

You guys are complicating and diluting the points I made. First, I am not now advocating a "conspiracy";  In fact, in Nevada I am 99.99% confident VP works like I always believed it did and should, I believe it works EXACTLY as you just described it and it is legit.    Second, in AC, however, things work and are set up considerably different.  This is the essence of all my posts and griping, and it is in fact my fault I did not look into AC practice and regulation more intently when I began noticing the stark statistical difference in my play results when comparing AC to Nevada VP.     Does everyone get that?   For years I played in Vegas, Reno, Tahoe etc and experienced typical VP results, even winning a decent amount of time.   When I started playing in AC for the first time in 2009 I (wrongly) assumed the games and system ran the same way....when I noticed through my usual detailed record keeping that some aspects of my VP play in AC were wayyyy off in a negative manner I began to question a lot of things.   Eventually (in the last couple weeks in fact) I sifted all the feedback I got from friends and associates, read the regs (NJ) thru and thru, talked to a seasoned casino exec and a couple lower level tech and floor personel and discovered New Jersey treats VP machines just like regular slots.   The blurb in the Regs about "optimal strategy" is only relevant and applicable in that paytables must be clear and accurate, but the actual VP ("slot) game RTP% is not BOUND solely to the advertised paytable, which leads to...... Third, the way VP machines in AC are set to fall within the accepted ranges for slots is by simply changing the Payable/Nonpayable hand rate (aka the "Dud rate", or the percent of hands that payoff, whether it is a pair of jacks all the way up to a Royal.)   The do not actually go in and set specific Hands (like quads or full houses, etc) at a specific rate of occurrence.    Typically most VP game variants have payable (winning) hand average rates set at 45.5% (give or take .1% here or there) and the "dud" rate falls around 55% give or take.   When I experienced my prolonged "dud" rate that was averaging in the mid 70s over several hundred thousand hands played at a number of AC casinos and scores of seperate machines, this is what I ran into.....the "slot" aspect of VP machines in AC had me playing machines set to RTP well below what the paytables predicted (I was probably playing VP machines set to RTP 90% even though the paytable predicted 97-98% or better, because the average payable/dud rate was set accordingly to produce a 90% RTP).  

[onemoretry]

   The blurb in the Regs about "optimal strategy" is only relevant and applicable in that paytables must be clear and accurate, but the actual VP ("slot) game RTP% is not BOUND solely to the advertised paytable

Could you expand on that?

Exactly what does it say?

[BillyJoe]

Again, RNG the heart of VP machines or any other machine for that matter, it sends out billions of poker combinations per day. You hit the deal button and you get the deal at whatever number the deal was at the time. Ten cards are dealt from a 52 card deck. Five shown and the five waiting to be picked from when you choose to drop cards from the original five. You're paid according to that particular games pay table.
Not exactly true, Stan. In the modern VP machines, when you hit 'Deal' 5 cards are selected for each hand played. But the RNG keeps running, and does not select the replacement cards until you hit the 'Draw' button.

[ImALooserBaby]

Thursday I was playing deuces wild at showboat and hit a royal no deuces for $1000. I was there till Sat and gave 300 back playing roulette and table games. Not too shabby.I'm new here btw. Hi everybody

[Vman96]

[QUOTE=DaBurglar]

   The blurb in the Regs about "optimal strategy" is only relevant and applicable in that paytables must be clear and accurate, but the actual VP ("slot) game RTP% is not BOUND solely to the advertised paytable

Could you expand on that?

Exactly what does it say?[/QUOTE]

By logic and mathematics, it is bound to the paytable. However, I will admit it's the worst written regulation with regard to random video poker I have ever seen.



But NJ law implies that video poker return is based upon the paytable. It is implied by point 3 in § 13:69E-1.28A.

(g) A slot machine game that requires skilled strategy choices, such as video poker, shall:

1. Have its theoretical RTP calculated based upon the player exercising optimal strategy during game play;

2. Disclose optimal strategy to achieve the highest theoretical RTP; or

3. Provide mathematically sufficient information for the patron to derive optimal strategy in order to achieve the highest theoretical RTP.

The only way point 3 is not violated is to use a random deck and have strategy derived by the only piece of information that they give, which is the paytable.

Note that NJ refers to video poker as a slot machine with skilled strategy choices. Most states lump video poker data with slot machine data in public revenue documents as well. But most other states have a clearer provision though by saying the machine must give an "accurate representation of a standard poker deck", so then maximum theoretical return is also solely determined by the paytable.

[JIMDUECE`SWILD]

Thursday I was playing deuces wild at showboat and hit a royal no deuces for $1000. I was there till Sat and gave 300 back playing roulette and table games. Not too shabby.
I'm new here btw. Hi everybody



 
 Welcome to the Forum.

[ko king]

VP machines pay out according to their pay tables which are there for ALL to see. They pay what they pay according to what you see, the combos are in the software RNG, (Random Number Generator) which runs 24/7 and you get paid accordingly . No they are never set to pay less then what the pay tables show. You get what you see. If some how the casino did not give you what the pay table shows, they would lose their license which would not be worth it. Everyone has cold spells. Casinos fixing VP machines to pay less is just conspiracy theory bunk.

 
Casinos are nothing more than corporations, the only real responsibility and reason for their existence is to not only make a profit but increase the profit margin. Every single industry is governed by laws and regulations that are stretched, bent and broken on a daily basis. Some of the most profitible corporations that exist have proven they will do whatever it takes to increase their bottom line. Now I ask you, why would you think the casino industry would be the exception? I have no proof or damning evidence that any casino is or would cheat but my common sense tells me it's possible if not probable, that's not to say I think all are or would.  I seriously doubt even if a casino was caught cheating it would make headlines, there is far to much at stake for all concerned entities and nothing would be gained by exposing the infraction.

[DaBurglar]

   
Casinos are nothing more than corporations, the only real responsibility and reason for their existence is to not only make a profit but increase the profit margin. Every single industry is governed by laws and regulations that are stretched, bent and broken on a daily basis. Some of the most profitible corporations that exist have proven they will do whatever it takes to increase their bottom line. Now I ask you, why would you think the casino industry would be the exception? I have no proof or damning evidence that any casino is or would cheat but my common sense tells me it's possible if not probable, that's not to say I think all are or would.  I seriously doubt even if a casino was caught cheating it would make headlines, there is far to much at stake for all concerned entities and nothing would be gained by exposing the infraction.
  Excellent post, well written and incisive.  I have been saying the same thing since I first arrived here;   and with regards to the quoted post from Stan7777 that ko_king responded to, Stan REPEATS the tired mantra about casinos automatically and decisively losing their license(s) if and when a rigged VP machine is uncovered......Stan used the term "CONSPIRACY THEORY BUNK" in his post, but the fact is, this naive-yet-alarmist faith that casinos will always be brought to justice if and when they cheat is TRULY BUNK if anything ever really was BUNK (no disrespect to Detective Bunk from HBOs "The Wire".....and incidentally, AC is mentioned numerous times in that HBO series as a favorite destination for Baltimore's Drug Dealing Strata for unloading lots of ill gotten booty, or "Ill botten gotty", take your pick.....NOW I KNOW FOR A FACT FROM my pals on the LAS VEGAS Metro PD, that in Nevada, one of the Gaming Commish's priorities out there is monitoring Casinos for possible Money Laundering by any of the numerous possible drug empires within several hundred miles of Vegas and other casino locales, especially the Mexican Cartels, and the L.A. street gangs)      Now in regards the actual NJ gaming regulation, the fact that VP is simply a "slot" game in AC, and what is actually allowed, section g-3 does NOT preclude setting a VP machine's RTP% below what a paytable would indicate by itself, because as far as the player is concerned, in NJ, unless the casino clearly and specifically ADVERTISES that their VP machines mimic a standard Poker deck, a NJ casino can legally set their machines to deal less than the expected payable hand rate (i.e. "deal more duds") and not violate the wording of #3....the player still has all the info he/she needs to get the HIGHEST possible return from THAT game/machine, it doesnt change what the player should do or how he plays, because the highest possible return is what it is (or what the casino sets it to be, which for slots in NJ can fall anywhere within a wide range.) Now of course, from a fairness standpoint and good business POV, it would make sense for NJ casinos to just leave the machines alone and operate them like Vegas/Nevada, and I submit they have done so in the past (when things were flush and they made money in spite of themselves...)  But since 2007, things CLEARLY have changed and become much more harsh and severe, so now it is obvious that in AC, a number of places have set a number of their machines below the expected paytable rate.   it's obvious, and apparently, its legal.   and of course, no one is going to announce this type of thing, instead you must find out for yourself by coming to places like this forum and doing your own homework and keeping an open mind.

[Vman96]

Now in regards the actual NJ gaming regulation, the fact that VP is simply a "slot" game in AC, and what is actually allowed, section g-3 does NOT preclude setting a VP machine's RTP% below what a paytable would indicate by itself, because as far as the player is concerned, in NJ, unless the casino clearly and specifically ADVERTISES that their VP machines mimic a standard Poker deck, a NJ casino can legally set their machines to deal less than the expected payable hand rate (i.e. "deal more duds") and not violate the wording of #3....the player still has all the info he/she needs to get the HIGHEST possible return from THAT game/machine, it doesnt change what the player should do or how he plays, because the highest possible return is what it is (or what the casino sets it to be, which for slots in NJ can fall anywhere within a wide range.)

Please mathematically prove that #3 is not violated by a greater than 1% RTP margin (cover my ass measure, since changing the probability of getting a 7 from 1 in 13 to 1 in 12.9999999 may not change optimal strategy with the random deck assumption, but also will change the game's return ever so slightly) with a non-random poker deck if the patron is NOT given the probabilities of cards dealt and/or drawn to him or her. I will give you $1,000,000 if you succeed. I am THAT confident that NO ONE can prove what I have just asked.

Just say AC casinos are breaking NJ state law and are gambling with their casino licenses doing so, and I will have no issue with this since I can't logically argue against you on this.