Just a case of Bad Luck

[Quad Deuces]

No matter what you say, you present no evidence.  What you say amounts to nothing more than, "I've had a horrible run of bad luck.  The machines must be rigged."When you DO present real numbers, they are easily calculable as well within what's expected, regardless of perceived "dud rates."I think the one who continues to play crap pay schedules when he thinks the games are rigged (why offer crap pay schedules if you can rig the game?) and then whine on the internet about poor results is the one who might want to seek help with his gambling problem.  1-800-522-4700.

[Vman96]

(why offer crap pay schedules if you can rig the game?)


Yep, I have yet to see a "paytable" on a Class II machine worse than 9/6 DDB, and I think it's clear to even DaBurglar that Class II machines are examples of "rigged video poker". In a Class III state like Nevada, places like the Sports Bar at the Mirage have 94.82% Deuces Wild available for quarters, and it's best game available looked to be 30/6/5 Bonus (96.18%). If Nevada could offer Class II games, would they keep these paytables? Only if they are stupid.

Same goes for New Jersey since I saw roveer post God knows how many pictures of 8/5 DDB Super Times Pay (97.06% w/STP). If the game was rigged, they would be always be using 9/6 DDB (98.98%) paytables or even better paying paytables unless the casinos were stupid! And are casinos that stupid? I don't think so.

[DaBurglar]

How simple are you guys?   How is it possible that you do not possess even a LITTLE imagination (and humility) to consider the possibilities and broader perspective in this issue? Sure, if a machine is rigged, and they post a GREAT paytable (we'll say something like 10/7 JOB, remember those days?)  and people line up to play it, but then loe and behold!  the "rigged" machine eats and eats and eats their money at an OBVIOUS rate, well then.....duh!?!?!?! You dont seem to want to remember, it was the outrageous ratio of DUDs (zero value hands) that caused me to question what ws happening.  And when i say "crap" paytables, well it is a relative thing, is it not?   8/5 JOB is crap, and yet that is about as good as you can find anywhere in AC with the exception of about 15-20 TOTAL 9/6 JOB machines in the entire CITY (and at only a few casinos.) PLUS, remember:  New Jersey OUTLAWS any machine/game that is 100% or above!  So to answer the idiotic question / accusation of why would a person like me play in AC unless I was "addicted", well kids, you will only find so many 99% machines in AC as it is, and the reason I have gone to AC these past 2-3 years is (as I already have explained before MANY TIMES) its a BEACH city with a boardwalk and all that that entails and offers!   Pure and simple......a person may either go to Vegas and ROAST and get dehydrated in the desert sand, or they can opt for a nice change of pace and enjoy beach sand and waves and seafood and on and on and on...... People who go to AC and want to play VP will accept whatever the casinos offer because even at 96-97%, it is still way better than slots.  So rigging some of these 96-97% machines accomplishes what they are trying to do regardless (which is obvious, isnt it?) And besides, we use the word "rigged" too flippantly in respect to AC anyway.....I still contend it is more likely it is just acceptable to "SET" the VP machines as they would SLOTS, which is allowed by their regs.   And the so called "optimal strategy" blurb in the regs applies only to what a player sees and knows anyway, not to what casinos are allowed to do to their slots in AC.    Besides, I had crap results on a variety of paytables, but mostly (as I said before) I always chose the least crappy paytables like 8/5 bonus or one of the few 9/6 JOB, or maybe the occasional 9/6 DB.   I just kept getting crap no matter what, and that had never happened on this scale to me before ANYWHERE.  Combine that with horribly worded gaming regs and a city in DESPERATE straights financially and it shouldnt surprise anyone if I chose to question things.    But it still probably was just bad luck.

[Vman96]

I still contend it is more likely it is just acceptable to "SET" the VP machines as they would SLOTS, which is allowed by their regs.   And the so called "optimal strategy" blurb in the regs applies only to what a player sees and knows anyway, not to what casinos are allowed to do to their slots in AC. 

It may be more likely to you, but I disagree. It would be illegal to set them that way by the way their law is currently written. It doesn't matter how crappy the wording is: a law is still a law. Ask any NJ gaming lawyer and see what they say about your claims? And if you truly believe that's the way the machines are set, I would recommend NEVER playing video poker there again without the expectation that they are never set to payback more than slots are. If you expect your video poker machine to payback 88% or whatever they decided to set it to that day, and when you take all your "detailed notes" and see you won 93% back in the last 50,000 hands, then you can at least be happy about it!

[DaBurglar]

[QUOTE=DaBurglar] I still contend it is more likely it is just acceptable to "SET" the VP machines as they would SLOTS, which is allowed by their regs.   And the so called "optimal strategy" blurb in the regs applies only to what a player sees and knows anyway, not to what casinos are allowed to do to their slots in AC. 

It may be more likely to you, but I disagree. It would be illegal to set them that way by the way their law is currently written. It doesn't matter how crappy the wording is: a law is still a law. Ask any NJ gaming lawyer and see what they say about your claims? And if you truly believe that's the way the machines are set, I would recommend NEVER playing video poker there again without the expectation that they are never set to payback more than slots are. If you expect your video poker machine to payback 88% or whatever they decided to set it to that day, and when you take all your "detailed notes" and see you won 93% back in the last 50,000 hands, then you can at least be happy about it![/QUOTE]
  That's not how it would, or does work, IF my fear is in fact true (and again, if you bother to ruminate on it, I am merely stating a POSSIBILIT......, a possibility that seems more than just theoretical based on my experiences).... What is more logical is something like this:   AC casinos would set their VP machines within a variety of payback ranges, changing it up as the year and seasons progress, from busy to slow to holiday and back again.....They'd be likely to set 10-20% of their machines to be in the lowest range allowed by law, 50-70% to be EXACTLY what the paytables say, and 10-20% somewhere in the midst of the range allowed by law.   And constantly mixing it up so as to discourage the vast majority of players who DO NOT do what i do from ever picking up on a discernible trend. You havent played in AC as much as I have....I have been there at all hours during all seasons (busy, slow, holidays, etc.)   At 2am until dawn, you will see these mopish techs going around to VP machines with a clipboard and keys and doing their duty.....EVERY NIGHT, a different sample of VP machines gets worked over.....now sure, they could be doing a lot of things, but it is possible one of the things they are doing is exactly what I am describing, setting the dud rates below the typical average for VP machines.   It is NOT impossible....and still allows for enough so-called winners to keep people guessing. For the record, I am meeting with the beat reporter with the AC Press, Donald Witzkowski, sometime in the next month, after the 4th of July.....and after him, based on what we discuss, I am definitely going to present my thoughts to whichever casino officials or lawyers he can direct me to.....writing letters, like whats his name suggests, is NOT the way to get bonafide, non-bs insight on this issue. 

[olds442jetaway]

I am beginning to take a survey of regular VP players at Mohegan Sun on a few things. For one, other than myself, a number of regular players are averaging well over 100k hands between Royals for extended periods. In addition, the dud rate appears to keep popping up mostly on the 9/6 JOB machines much more often than I am comfortable with. It is not unusual at all now to see 25 or more consecutive duds on these machines. Sometimes, one break even hand pops up, then the extended dud pattern just resumes.  For that reason, I have almost completely discontinued playing JOB. The only way I can stay anywhere near even now is to play Joker Kings with a slow progression up after a certain number of losing hands. At least that way, I do not need the normal amount of hits, since the hits with more units in offset all of the smaller ones. I also find if I do not back down my units accordingly after a couple of decent hits,  the losing pattern resumes and being that you at that point are playing a high number of units, your bankroll will bust in short order. I haven't tried this method with JOB because I am just not comfortable with what I am seeing, and since I am averaging 15-20k hands/week, I do see a lot of wierd stuff as well as get plenty of feedback from other players. Gone are the days when an entire row of VP machines would light up with multiple nice hits by 4 or 5 patrons in the same 15 minute period.

[shadowman]

"I am beginning to take a survey of regular VP players at Mohegan Sun "

Well, if these customers are anything like the regular customers where I play then I can only tell you this ... you are wasting your time. You will always get a negative viewpoint. I hear woes of losing all the time while I and other APers are winning. And, the most vocal are the people losing the most.

[DaBurglar]

"I am beginning to take a survey of regular VP players at Mohegan Sun "

Well, if these customers are anything like the regular customers where I play then I can only tell you this ... you are wasting your time. You will always get a negative viewpoint. I hear woes of losing all the time while I and other APers are winning. And, the most vocal are the people losing the most.
 First off, I agree with what shadowman types here, this point is well established, people are more habituated to relate NEGATIVE experiences and viewpoints than positive ones, IF they are solicited ("asked") for their opinions.....on the flipside of this phenomenon, people are more likely to VOLUNTEER winning/positive experiences than losing, hence the old adage in casinos: "A winner will tell 200 people they won while a loser tells no one (or very few and only if asked.)" Secondly:  Shadowman, you stated before you are a "winner", and now you have accentuated this point in the above blurb.....ok fine, i do not have any reason to NOT believe this (regardless of whether you give me the same credit), but can you possibly provide specifics?  where do you primarily play to accrue  these winnings?   What games and denominations? Part of my problem with AC is/was that, for my prior 15-plus years of playing VP before 2009, I was a marginally profitable player in markets such as Vegas, Reno and elsewhere out west (I only recorded 5 losing years out of 15, and lifetime prior to 2009 I was up around 5 to 6 grand, not including comps and bonuses, all from playing strictly 25 cent level VP)    Since 2009 in AC, I am way way down, not even close nor was I ever close to breaking even....only when I apply comps and bonuses do i even approach a level of LOSING in AC that is palatable, but even this is ultimately leading me to conclude I should just give up AC altogether......as I stated before, it is this XTREME, STARK difference that leads me to suspect something else is afoot rather than "only" crappy luck.   The differences in paytables alone does NOT explain the difference.

[DaBurglar]

olds442jetway: I live about 1 hour away from Mohegan across the stateline.....the whole reason I go to AC is simply due to having experienced what you are now experiencing.   When i tried to establish a base of play at Mohegan in 2009, I had such abysmal results there in the span of  4 visits inside of 6 weeks, I just shrugged it off and got on the Bus and went to AC, thinking at the time that the market in AC, with big name national casino companies, and the large established CITY devoted to gaming would give me results similar to what I saw in Vegas and Reno.   At the very least, I figured the sketchy, dodgy gaming regs and enforcement thereof in Connecticut would give way to more stable, upright regs and enforcement in AC due to its size and long history. Now I am not so sure......but let me just say, my opinion and views on AC are the results of 4 YEARS of play......how long have you been hav ing these crappy results in Mohegan?   I gave up on Mohegan after a few visits......at the time, I did not feel as strong as I do now after my AC experience....back then I just (as i said) "shrugged it off" and went elsewhere.....is it possible for YOU to do the same?   I'm not saying run to AC, but I will say losing even in AC is superior to losing in the middle-of-no-where in southern Connecticut!  At least in AC, there are things to do, places to see and LOTS of great food.   In the twin asylums that are Mohegan and Foxwoods, you are stuck in the woods with nothing else as an option!

[BillyJoe]

"I am beginning to take a survey of regular VP players at Mohegan Sun "

Well, if these customers are anything like the regular customers where I play then I can only tell you this ... you are wasting your time. You will always get a negative viewpoint. I hear woes of losing all the time while I and other APers are winning. And, the most vocal are the people losing the most.
Why would an APer share with anyone where the 'good' paytables/machines are at ?