How much do we still not know?

[Tedlark]

  No jackpots hitting? How about: "The Sound of Silence"  by Simon & Garfunkel?

[edog743]

No jackpots hitting? No religion too? I just can't  IMAGINE. RIP john lennon.

[shadowman]

 
With all do respect, wny do you place all casinos on a pedestal {A position of high regard or adoration.}, I really don't get it. I can't think of any industry that hasn't been guilty of abusing the system despite laws and regulations.

Nonsense, you must not get around much.


Casinos are corporations many of them very large and while percentages enter into the equation the overall goal is to maximize profits. The days of corporations being sensitive, moral and caring are long gone and have been replaced with a new outlook, "what's the least we can provide to maximize profit and still maintain base".

Perception is important, especially to casinos who require that the players "trust them" or they will go elsewhere. One part of maximizing profits is to attract more customers. That won't happen if they believe you are cheating them.

I see where you brought up IGT and Ballys, both cater to the casinos, their customers who by the way have one thing in mind, maximize profits. I don't see IGT, Ballys or the state regulators  as running the casino industry, I see them as dependents of the industry. You could argue that as dependents it would be in their best interest to insure the integrity of the industry but I would say it's in their best interest to preserve and protect the appearence of said integrity, after all it's the casinos providing the rain not them.

The manufacturers serve hundreds of casinos. Why would they tarnish their reputation and business by providing anything illegal to any one or two casinos? Not good business. Once again, you obviously don't understand how businesses operate. You don't understand that there a lots of employees who would just love to stick it to their bosses. They would have no qualms about reporting illegal activity.

[DaBurglar]

  The manufacturers serve hundreds of casinos. Why would they tarnish their reputation and business by providing anything illegal to any one or two casinos? Not good business. Once again, you obviously don't understand how businesses operate. You don't understand that there a lots of employees who would just love to stick it to their bosses. They would have no qualms about reporting illegal activity.
  This whole debate/discussion centering on the MANUFACTURERS' part of whether VP is legit is pointless.....manufacturers like IGT & Ballys provide what they are asked and required, and sure, the machines most likely comply with the LETTER, if not the spirit, of the law.   BUT, VP Machines are highly modifiable and many companies order them to be modfiable for obvious business reasons.   Manufacturers would never put themselves or there business on the line by being liable, as shadowman states, but on the other hand, any smart manufacturer provides all the necessary legal paperwork and disclosure to prevent such a thing from ever happening NO MATTER what the manufacturer is providing, EVEN if the machines DO IN FACT violate some states' law.    But stop saying things like "you do not obviously understand business" because that is both pointless and cuts both ways....YOUR statement about "lots" of employees looking to stick it to their bosses is no more relevant, provable or exact than my claims you dismiss of AC casinos POSSIBLY juking some of their machines.     People I know and work with, and companies I have worked for, actually are NOT eager to blow whistles and call the cops.....not about mundane crap anyway like what we are discussing.  People are apathetic, this much is indisputable.....look at how few people vote.   When people see laws being violated in the work place, or elsewhere, more often than not they ignore it.....they dont want to be involved, dont want their life disrupted, certainly do not want to be fired or blackballed.....ONLY when people are given a sure thing, like witness protection or up front money or some tangible deal will they blow whistles. And remember, we are talking about "Casinos" and gambling here, not bloodshed, or medical malpractice, or love canal nuclear waste type issues.....a headline that reads "casinos caught cheating" actually is not all that shocking except to people like us.    These days, people truly do not give a crap unless they are paid.....you know I am right about this.

[shadowman]

  This whole debate/discussion centering on the MANUFACTURERS' part of whether VP is legit is pointless.....manufacturers like IGT & Ballys provide what they are asked and required, and sure, the machines most likely comply with the LETTER, if not the spirit, of the law.   BUT, VP Machines are highly modifiable and many companies order them to be modfiable for obvious business reasons.

Do you have any evidence to support this assertion? Nope, didn't think so.

Manufacturers would never put themselves or there business on the line by being liable, as shadowman states, but on the other hand, any smart manufacturer provides all the necessary legal paperwork and disclosure to prevent such a thing from ever happening NO MATTER what the manufacturer is providing, EVEN if the machines DO IN FACT violate some states' law. 

Nonsense.

 But stop saying things like "you do not obviously understand business" because that is both pointless and cuts both ways....YOUR statement about "lots" of employees looking to stick it to their bosses is no more relevant, provable or exact than my claims you dismiss of AC casinos POSSIBLY juking some of their machines.     People I know and work with, and companies I have worked for, actually are NOT eager to blow whistles and call the cops.....not about mundane crap anyway like what we are discussing.  People are apathetic, this much is indisputable.....look at how few people vote.   When people see laws being violated in the work place, or elsewhere, more often than not they ignore it.....they dont want to be involved, dont want their life disrupted, certainly do not want to be fired or blackballed.....ONLY when people are given a sure thing, like witness protection or up front money or some tangible deal will they blow whistles. And remember, we are talking about "Casinos" and gambling here, not bloodshed, or medical malpractice, or love canal nuclear waste type issues.....a headline that reads "casinos caught cheating" actually is not all that shocking except to people like us.    These days, people truly do not give a crap unless they are paid.....you know I am right about this.

Nonsense.

You want to believe something so you only accept interpretations that support what you want to believe. Not unusual, but gets to the heart of the matter.

[DaBurglar]

[QUOTE=DaBurglar]
  This whole debate/discussion centering on the MANUFACTURERS' part of whether VP is legit is pointless.....manufacturers like IGT & Ballys provide what they are asked and required, and sure, the machines most likely comply with the LETTER, if not the spirit, of the law.   BUT, VP Machines are highly modifiable and many companies order them to be modfiable for obvious business reasons.

Do you have any evidence to support this assertion? Nope, didn't think so.
[/quote] lol   I want everyone here to be easy on shadowman, because I personally do not believe he is as petulant and childish as This pee wee herman-esque, "non-sensical", one-and-a-half line reply above to my post would indicate.  But as usual, if you make a well reasoned, well written and argued point that disagrees even slightly with Shadowman's "weltanschauung" of how business and people and ethics work, his insecurity gets the better of him and he acts like you just called him the worst insult possible.   But if you read this first quoted part above carefully, you see that I am actually AGREEING with shadowman's first premise, that IGT and BALLY's comply with applicable regs or laws or whatever......the second part, that VP machines are modifiable is also indisputable.  Quite often, when casinos purchase a VP machine or slot machine, they order the vanilla version and they add on and modify all the features and bells and whistles (and obviously, paytables and  return percentage where applicable and appropriate.)   I mean, wtf is the problem here with this statement?    if Shadowman means that I am stating casinos order a VP machine and then they go in and "modify" or change the RNG or chip, well then NO that is not what I am saying .   jeez
[[QUOTE=DaBurglar] Manufacturers would never put themselves or there business on the line by being liable, as shadowman states, but on the other hand, any smart manufacturer provides all the necessary legal paperwork and disclosure to prevent such a thing from ever happening NO MATTER what the manufacturer is providing, EVEN if the machines DO IN FACT violate some states' law. 

Nonsense.
[/quote]  Clearly Shadowman was influenced, even traumatized, as a youngster when he read Lewis Carrol, as he deems himself an expert on "nonsense" ......<da burglar waits to see if anyone understands the intellectual reference to the Author of ALice in Wonderland> Again, I dont see the problem here.....having worked in manufacturing, along with distribution and sales/marketing, I am aware of how many companies in many industries cover their proverbial legal backsides via "certs" (i.e. the never ending sea of legalese documentation whereby manufacurers state and re-state what they have provided and what it complies with, as well as what it does not comply with, etc etc.)  My point is simple and requires no "proof" since it is my INFORMED and EDUCATED opinion and observation:   A manufacturer, if asked by a customer, can provide a product that does NOT comply with a here-to-fore legal or ethical imperative, and in doing so they can COVER their legal backside by providing the customer (and themselves) full disclosure via documentation that the manufacturer informs the customer the product does NOT meet compliance AND THAT HENCEFORTH the manufacturer is no longer responsible for what the customer does with the product. Translation:  ALL I was saying is that IGT or Ballys COULD, if asked by a casino/customer, provide a machine that allows the casino/customer to "modify" the chip (or some other part of the machine that normally is verbotten per NJ state gaming regs), and provided the appropriate paperwork and disclosure is documented by IGT or Ballys in which Ballys or IGT states " we provided casino XYZ machine(s) which do not comply with NJ reg suc-and-such and which, therefore, should only be used for NON-gaming revenue purposes...etc ..."     Their arse is covered.    End of story/ 
 [QUOTE=DaBurglar]  But stop saying things like "you do not obviously understand business" because that is both pointless and cuts both ways....YOUR statement about "lots" of employees looking to stick it to their bosses is no more relevant, provable or exact than my claims you dismiss of AC casinos POSSIBLY juking some of their machines.     People I know and work with, and companies I have worked for, actually are NOT eager to blow whistles and call the cops.....not about mundane crap anyway like what we are discussing.  People are apathetic, this much is indisputable.....look at how few people vote.   When people see laws being violated in the work place, or elsewhere, more often than not they ignore it.....they dont want to be involved, dont want their life disrupted, certainly do not want to be fired or blackballed.....ONLY when people are given a sure thing, like witness protection or up front money or some tangible deal will they blow whistles. And remember, we are talking about "Casinos" and gambling here, not bloodshed, or medical malpractice, or love canal nuclear waste type issues.....a headline that reads "casinos caught cheating" actually is not all that shocking except to people like us.    These days, people truly do not give a crap unless they are paid.....you know I am right about this.

Nonsense.

You want to believe something so you only accept interpretations that support what you want to believe. Not unusual, but gets to the heart of the matter.[/QUOTE]
  The last sentence you state with "you want to believe.....so you accept...."     if that is what you truly want to say in response to my argument that people are apathetic and generally would rather avoid conflict rather than seek it out, well Shadowman that comes right back at you and applies to you EVEN more than it ever could apply to me.   You dismiss anything and everything on this forum that conflicts with what you choose to believe, which is baffling because the whole premise behind such a forum as this is for people to SHARE and discuss and banter and debate, but you are hung up upon a pathological need to "prove" (or be provided proof) matters which are, by their very definition and nature, based on opinions and faith.    You come off as ridiculous..... HOW YOU CAN possibly disagree with the statement/fact that people are generally apathetic and seek to avoid conflict is beyond me.....I am not saying you cant do that, because obviously you can, that is your opinion and world view, but I am confident most people, if pressed for an answer, would agree with me.    There really is NO way to prove one way or another if people would "blow the whistle" or not, nor is there anyway to prove what would happen after it is blown!      I just disagree with your opinion that people AUTOMATICALLY BLOW (lol)  when presented with a Blowing-of-the-whistle opportunity

[sam434343]

Don't worry Daburglar I am still working on that!!! But case in point this very site we play on Video poker.com/ Action gaming inc. Owner/President by E.W.M./ sued Bally/Old name Aliance gaming Corp.(They merged) (these companies have changed there names few times over 45 years time frame)(There name is now Bally Technologies Inc. over patent of Multi hand 3, play video poker, case settle 7figure settlement and a cut of all the business these Corp. do with the games E.W.M. invented. So I guess you could say if(big)money involved, big business will do what is necessary to make big profits. OH! NO! Not as big profit as they wanted! This only partial information on this case,you can run your own internet check on this, because I probably left out some stuff but you get the general Idea. Probably everybody on video poker already knows this anyway?

[ko king]

[QUOTE=ko king]
 

With all do respect, wny do you place all casinos on a pedestal {A position of high regard or adoration.}, I really don't get it. I can't think of any industry that hasn't been guilty of abusing the system despite laws and regulations.

Nonsense, you must not get around much.


Casinos are corporations many of them very large and while percentages enter into the equation the overall goal is to maximize profits. The days of corporations being sensitive, moral and caring are long gone and have been replaced with a new outlook, "what's the least we can provide to maximize profit and still maintain base".

Perception is important, especially to casinos who require that the players "trust them" or they will go elsewhere. One part of maximizing profits is to attract more customers. That won't happen if they believe you are cheating them.

I see where you brought up IGT and Ballys, both cater to the casinos, their customers who by the way have one thing in mind, maximize profits. I don't see IGT, Ballys or the state regulators  as running the casino industry, I see them as dependents of the industry. You could argue that as dependents it would be in their best interest to insure the integrity of the industry but I would say it's in their best interest to preserve and protect the appearence of said integrity, after all it's the casinos providing the rain not them.

The manufacturers serve hundreds of casinos. Why would they tarnish their reputation and business by providing anything illegal to any one or two casinos? Not good business. Once again, you obviously don't understand how businesses operate. You don't understand that there a lots of employees who would just love to stick it to their bosses. They would have no qualms about reporting illegal activity.[/QUOTE]
 
I get around and I've been around, what industry, big banks, oil industry, maybe Wall Street, surely you can't be serious. I'm not hear to argue with you I just don't understand how you can say the whole gaming industry is clean as a whistle.

[shadowman]

I can only shake my head. The entire gambling industry is based on trust. If people do not trust the machines or the casinos they will go elsewhere. So, you cannot compare this industry to every other industry. And, no one ever said they would be "clean as a whistle". Only that they are not motivated to cheat. Just the opposite.

Now, I see Da Burglar in complete denial of his own comments. In a discussion on whether machine manufacturers are honest he claims that his comment about allowing modifications didn't have anything to do with the ability to cheat. Hilarious.

PS. I have only come across one person who references "Pee Wee Herman". Guess who that is? Not surprisingly that same person also claims others are "insecure". What a co-incidence.

[DaBurglar]

I can only shake my head. The entire gambling industry is based on trust. If people do not trust the machines or the casinos they will go elsewhere. So, you cannot compare this industry to every other industry. And, no one ever said they would be "clean as a whistle". Only that they are not motivated to cheat. Just the opposite.

Now, I see Da Burglar in complete denial of his own comments. In a discussion on whether machine manufacturers are honest he claims that his comment about allowing modifications didn't have anything to do with the ability to cheat. Hilarious.

PS. I have only come across one person who references "Pee Wee Herman". Guess who that is? Not surprisingly that same person also claims others are "insecure". What a co-incidence.


  NONSENSE!!!!!   (all of it)