How much do we still not know?

[ko king]

I can only shake my head. The entire gambling industry is based on trust. If people do not trust the machines or the casinos they will go elsewhere. So, you cannot compare this industry to every other industry. And, no one ever said they would be "clean as a whistle". Only that they are not motivated to cheat. Just the opposite.

Now, I see Da Burglar in complete denial of his own comments. In a discussion on whether machine manufacturers are honest he claims that his comment about allowing modifications didn't have anything to do with the ability to cheat. Hilarious.

PS. I have only come across one person who references "Pee Wee Herman". Guess who that is? Not surprisingly that same person also claims others are "insecure". What a co-incidence.



I've been playing for 23 years running now in what was at one time the 3rd largest gaming market in the nation. I have no idea nor do I care where they stand now, I do know gaming revenues have been falling like a rock the last few years. The casinos have laid employees off and made cuts everywhere they could. During weekdays it's like a ghost town nowdays and even on the weekends the crowds are nothing like they used to be. I know it would be easy to point to the economy and say people just don't have the money to spare but that's just not the case, the cost of playing went up, plain and simple. It's common knowledge around these parts, it's not like it used to be and it didn't happen overnight. Players did not just wake up one day and say I'm going to stop playing as much or I'm completely quitting. I've been at these casinos for 23 years now and I've seen the rise and fall and all I can say is they deserve whatever they get, they've done it to themselves. Like you said "players will go elsewhere" and that's pretty much what happened, I still play as much as I ever did, maybe more and I still run into players  I haven't seen in a long time that made the same decision. Are they cheating, I couldn't say but the price of play most certainly went up and you couldn't tell it by looking at the paytables.  I've got more to say on the topic but I'm tired now. maybe tomorrow.

[shadowman]

I've been playing for 23 years running now in what was at one time the 3rd largest gaming market in the nation. I have no idea nor do I care where they stand now, I do know gaming revenues have been falling like a rock the last few years. The casinos have laid employees off and made cuts everywhere they could. During weekdays it's like a ghost town nowdays and even on the weekends the crowds are nothing like they used to be. I know it would be easy to point to the economy and say people just don't have the money to spare but that's just not the case, the cost of playing went up, plain and simple. It's common knowledge around these parts, it's not like it used to be and it didn't happen overnight. Players did not just wake up one day and say I'm going to stop playing as much or I'm completely quitting. I've been at these casinos for 23 years now and I've seen the rise and fall and all I can say is they deserve whatever they get, they've done it to themselves. Like you said "players will go elsewhere" and that's pretty much what happened, I still play as much as I ever did, maybe more and I still run into players  I haven't seen in a long time that made the same decision. Are they cheating, I couldn't say but the price of play most certainly went up and you couldn't tell it by looking at the paytables.  I've got more to say on the topic but I'm tired now. maybe tomorrow.

Based on your observations it sounds like if the casinos are cheating it is working against them. This is exactly what I would expect and why it makes little sense for them to cheat. People will just stop playing.

Now, another possible reason why people aren't going to AC is competition. I no longer go to a casino that is 150 miles away because it is inconvenient. Could it be that new casinos in PA have the same affect on AC?

[DaBurglar]

  Based on your observations it sounds like if the casinos are cheating it is working against them. This is exactly what I would expect and why it makes little sense for them to cheat. People will just stop playing.

Now, another possible reason why people aren't going to AC is competition. I no longer go to a casino that is 150 miles away because it is inconvenient. Could it be that new casinos in PA have the same affect on AC?
  Ok, if we are going to actually have an inteligent non-petulant conversation regarding AC and why things are the way they are, I am game, but I will say that lost amongst all the hoo-hah and BS and bluster that my posts received when i suggested possible irregularities (including but not limitied to possible rigging) in AC's Video Poker, I hbave already pointed out and addressed what AC's problems are and continue to be.... Yes, shadowman is correct (it kills me to type that for some reason) in saying competition is PART of the problem, and he is also correct to say that CHEATING (on a wide and sustained scale) could cause people to split....but it is far more complex and murky than these two simple straightforward answers provide. WHat Ko King and I (and others) are saying is that AC's VP has deteriorated in terms of Return % at a rate and at an amount FAR greater than the simple reduction of paytable ssuggests or should cause.   I have seen it and tracked it, compared it to my successful (relatively speaking) VP play in Nevada, and combined with other players saying the same thing, concluded something is different in how AC VP works than elsewhere, and it is NOT simply randomness.   NOR do I believe it is outright cheating (as I have said many times despite what others want to attribute to me)...I believe that the difference is SYSTEMIC, something allowed (but not well known or understood or even discussed) in AC casinos that is not allowed elsewhere. But it is even more than this issue, a lot more.   If you talk to any AC cab driver who has worked there more than 8 years, they tell you the SAME exact thing:  "People do NOT win" in AC.....now this is not an ABSOLUTE statement and it is somewhat Hypoerbole, but what the AC cabbies are really saying is "People no longer win Often enough or at a great enough amount" to motivate them to visit as often as they once did......this is undoubtedly true. Competition is inevitable in any free market and in any PROFITABLE business/industry.  AC complaining and explaining their 5 year nosedive that has seen HALF their revenue disappear is the result of COMPETITION is pathetic;  the problem is AC's RESPONSE to this competition.   They have been unwilling and unable to adapt and change, it sthat simple.  Now why this is the case, WHY they cannot adapt or change to maintain their marketshare or even grow is another HUGE and murky discussion, but part of the problem is obviously the people they have running the casinos and working the floors/hotels.   The level of customer service is horrible compared to other gambling destinations, so some people leave because of that.   The marketing is stale and unimaginative so there goes your growth and some more existing business from people who like fresh ideas.   But the biggest reason AC is losing gamblers is THE GAMBLING itself......IF, all of a sudden, AC started loosening slots (and put the word out they are doing it), if they put in More 99.5% VP paytables instead of 95%, GAMBLERS will return and stay (for a while at least).    But they do not do this......instead they do more of the same (like open yet another BEACH spot, Margaritaville), and do more of what got them killed in the first place (open REVEL and stock it with crappy gaming options but lots of overpriced shoppes and grub.) So, IN DESPERATION, casinos MAY (in an effort anyway to make THIS QUARTERS numbers and BONUS before they get sh**Tcanned) tighten their slots even further, and tap into whatever obscure gaming regs allow them to take MORE out of VP machine that nominally returns 97% but they decide, for the next month, it will return only 92% but dont tell the players!   Hey, it is NOT inconceivable or even unreasonable.  If you think you are doomed anyway, who care???   I'm just saying, its possible, you cannot discount it out of hand.    I cannot explain the results I have seen and others without giving this at leeast some credence.    AC Needs drastic change to stop the bleeding, and then even more plastic surgery to try and grow again.   They need to reach out beyond their traditional markets of NYC, Philly, Washington DC, baltimore (and any other urban area within 3 hours drive) and start marketing to people all over the country, tailoring the marketing to various areas and give people A REASON to at least TRY AC.....

[BOOPSAHOY]

They dont have to rig the vp games they just have to lower the paytables.

[DaBurglar]

They dont have to rig the vp games they just have to lower the paytables.
  True enough boop (or poob....or boobs ) And in fact, AC has done this in most if not all its casinos, such that you now actually see horrible, un-playable paytables such as 6/5 JOB and other dreadful settings (especially on all the NEW "My Video Poker" games that allow players to "customize" their specific personal VP preferences).....and this leads to further discussion and postulating:   WHO, if anyone, is actually playing such horrible games?     I myself, and people I know and play with, confine ourselves to the few remaining acceptable (in this day and age) paytables, such as the 9/6 JOB machines (around 15 to 20 in the entire city at the 25 cent level), 8/5 Bonus poker (resorts DID have a lot of those at 25 cents until April when they started getting rid of a lot of them), and you can still find some 9/6 DB machines in a variety of places.   But it is getting fewer and farther between to find any VP game with a paytable above 97%....the trend is to either get rid of VP altogether, or clobber the paytables (or somewhere in between like AC club, which got rid of 75% of its VP machines, and the remaining games have crappy paytables.) When I experienced my run of horrible results, i played exclusively these "less crappy" games like 9/6 DB, 8/5 Bonus Poker (99.17%) and 9/6 JOB (99.5% when I could find an open machine) but received all those duds and zeroes, over and over and over......a few times, out of frustration or sheer curiosity I would play a few hands of unacceptable games like 7/5 DDB or JOB, or a horrible Deuces wild paytable (there are MANY D/W paytable variants in AC that are awful) and my results on these machines actually were a little better in terms of less duds, but because I played so few hands compared to the other paytables I cannot draw any meaningful conclusion.    My point (and my Theory, such as it is) regarding how AC manages its VP inventory centers around its nebulous gaming regs, its terrible economic performance and its inability to put together a solid and dynamic marketing strategy that has a real chance to improve its fortunes.   The properties (with 2 exceptions, Borgata and Harrahs) are struggling terribly, and management in these places is desperate (or getting there.)   Patience is GONE, no one wants to do the hard work or take the long hard road neccessary to real recovery, so they are grasping at straws.   THIS IS NOT merely my opinion....ANYONE who has spent time, more than a few days, in AC since the Hurricane last year can clearly see what I am talking about, it is THAT obvious and palpable.   Hell, you dont need to visit AC, just research this on the internet and read papers and publications on the subject!    Vegas and Reno, and many other gaming markets around North America, have recovered (for the most part) much of the market share and revenue they lost prior to the 2007 economic collapse and recession.   AC has continued in decline (freefall actually) such that HALF (50% ...... and climbing) its gaming revenue has disappeared since late 2007!!!!!!   I mean, wtf?????   Consider that number for more than a few seconds..... From 1979 when it first opened its second property after Resorts opened in 1978, until 2005 AC grew just like every gaming market in North AMerica.....they made money hand over fist, they made money in Summer and Winter, and they made money in spite of themselves!    For a long time, AC had no competition, they were the ONLY major, significant, multi property gambling locale east of the mississippi, and unlike Vegas, AC was NOT located in the middle of no where!   For these reasons, and others, casinos in AC were able to offer lousy paytables, slots and table games (in comparison to Vegas or Reno for example) and yet this did not influence or deter people from returning.  Having the Beach and all that comes with it helped AC influence people to come and play despite lousy gambling odds.   AC literally made money without trying, unlike Vegas which required a sustained, agressive marketing campaign and (fortunately for Vegas) they had the people and companies, along with a State Legislature and population/electorate, willing to do what it took to build the business up and keep it.......New Jersey however, was, and remains, a totlaly different story. Since 2007, as I already mentioned, AC has been UNABLE  and/or  UNWILLING  to adapt and change to the dynamic market forces and situation it finds itself up against.   Until this is rectified, until they bring in managers (i.e. people) willing to tolerate short term pain and effort to achieve long term success, they will continue to do things like keep VP paytables at the lowest level possible while also adjusting INTERNALLY ( as much as allowable, if not more than is allowable, by law) whatever VP settings needed to align return percentage on a level equal to SLOTS (since, as we know, New Jersey lumps VP machines with SLOTS, which is also how idiotic shortsighted casino executives have long regarded VP machines, as simply another form of SLOTs!)    This may seem hardly worth the while to many of you, and to some extent, you would be right......but remember this:    Unless they want to eliminate class III machines altogether (which they still might do) they will attempt to squeeze as much blood from the turnip as possible;    under the current, desperate financial situation, a single months performance numbers (gaming)  in a casino (such as AC club or Resorts or Trump Plaza) can actually be impacted by a few Royals ( say 35 to 40, or maybe ONE per day in any given month) at denominations above quarters.....seriously, things are SO tight and precarious that an extra $150 to $200k up or down in a month can mean the difference between a bonus or no bonus for an exec;  it can mean layoffs or no layoffs this months; it can mean having an impact on a fiscal QUarter, which in turns impacts Quarterly reports, which influence STOCK prices in the next 48 to 72 hours after release of info....you see where this is going!  

[jetermacaw]

I have been to AC every Thursday for the last 6 weeks. I only play at Harrah's, because the 9/6 machines @ Caesars are in a smokey area that makes me feel I'm sitting in an ash tray, I can't win ANYTHING on the 9/6 machines at Showboat and the only drink they will give me is Miller Light. At Harrah's the Quick Quads machines I play are in a great area, no smoke, and I can order drinks via the computer on the game. Last week the wife didn't want to wait for the Caesars Shuttle to the Boardwalk so I had to get a cab. I asked the cabbie how he was doing, I quote, " Terrible, people have stopped coming because they can't win anymore, he asked me what game I played and I told him VP, and hes says I know u aren't winning". I have held my own the last 6 weeks, not a big player at all, up around $300.00. I play 5 hand QQs for a nickel, and switch between BP and TBP.

[BillyJoe]

IMO, if you take a snapshot today, AC is overbuilt relative to the available gaming clientele and the nearby competition. They are not the 'destination resort' that Vegas is, in that they cannot draw customers from all over the country, and the world, to their hotels and casinos.
 
In that regard, they are now not too dissimilar from Tunica and Biloxi.  

[DaBurglar]

IMO, if you take a snapshot today, AC is overbuilt relative to the available gaming clientele and the nearby competition. They are not the 'destination resort' that Vegas is, in that they cannot draw customers from all over the country, and the world, to their hotels and casinos.
 
In that regard, they are now not too dissimilar from Tunica and Biloxi.   As of today, this is a fair analogy in circumstances and scale (but AC's total revenue is currently tied with the entire state of Pennsylvania for second well behind Vegas), but it really should NOT be close and until very recently it was not even close! Atlantic city is accessible to, and within 3 hours driving distance of, a HUGE HUGE HUGE potential pool of clients/customers (if you expand the radius North, West and South-southwest out to 5 hours driving time the potential customer pool becomes even more immense); and this is what alowed them to grow starting when they opened in 1978 and ultimately attain the level they did when it peaked back in 2005-2006.   Keep in mind that AC was already a famous destination seaside resort/vacation spot that had fallen on hard times by 1975, when New Jersey decided to become a gambling state.      Look at a map and see all the various Large, medium and even small urban areas and towns within 5 hours (250-300 miles)!   Imagine if Vegas had overland accessibility like that to such a HUGE population; as it is, Los Angeles, San Diego and Phoenix provide Vegas a steady stream of overland customer traffic but it truly is an arduous trek across a dangerous desert!   Vegas grew explosively starting in 1992 primarily because they invested in McCarran Airport, and meticulously kept its capacity AHEAD of pace with growth; but even now McCarran remains Vegas' one big huge achilles heal, which is why the city periodically revisits the topic of a second airport 40 minutes down I-15 near the stateline in Primm, Nevada: If something happens to disrupt Air Travel, as it did in 2001, Vegas is mortally vulnerable. Not true with AC, and yet, on the other hand, it is the lack of a big time Airport that prevents AC from truly expanding its Marketing grasp outside of that 5 hour driving radius to reach customers who would need to fly..... they do have an airport in AC but it is a joke.  If the city is ever to become more than it ever was, it needs a modern, streamlined cost effective airport. Billyjoe is correct in saying that AC is NOT a "destination resort" in the same vein as VEGAS, but they really COULD BE if they got their act together and State (NJ), local (City of AC) and Casino Leadership collaborated to work in unison to build something special! I am totally serious, I can see it......as I emphasized many times already, AC has something unique and special that Vegas does not .... THE OCEAN!!! These last 3-4 years that saw me all but abandon flying 5-1/2 hours across the country once a month to Vegas and instead ride 5-1/2 hours down to AC, and it CERTAINLY WAS NOT the gaming that made me decide to spend time and my discretionary gambling funds in AC!   It was primarily the fact that AC is a seaside resort and I wanted that experience combined with my gambling fun!!!!   Also, the climate is much more mild and pleasant.    In addition to an Airport, they should revamp / re-establish their port facilities and set up a type of "cruise" experience to and from AC between all sorts of ports-of-call on the Atlantic seaboard, and not just the USA coastal cities, but expand it!  Create a deal with Royal Carribean or Norwegian or Carnival to bring some carribean and latin american cruises up the coast and stop for an overnight visit in the port of AC!   Think about it, give the gamblers on the cruise ships some legit gambling (well, you know what I mean, I should say "more legit" than what the ships have, AC gaming regs and duds not withstanding! ) AC Needs to have sports betting, no two ways about it.   The State of NJ needs to have the cojones, and the money budgeted, to wage the legal battle until victory against the sanctimonious and hypocritical NCAA and Professional Sports leagues trying to stop AC from offering sports betting! AC Needs to LOOSEN LOOSEN LOOSEN....and then LOOSEN some more, their slots and jack up the VP paytables to 99% as much as possible, and then YELL at the top of their lungs that they have done so in order to lure back the gamblers who left, as well as attract new gamblers (many of whom stay away becase of the well known perception that AC sucks for gamblers, which it generally does....)   Then, when things have improved, slowwwwwly return things to a more reasonable equilibrium whereby the player is NOT always screwed over as in the past. 

[Quad Deuces]

Who cares if they LOOSEN LOOSEN LOOSEN the paytables if all the machines are rigged?

[BillyJoe]

To your point, Burglar....
New Jersey officials argued in favor of legalizing sports betting in the state in a case before a federal appeals court in Philadelphia. New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie, who signed a bill into law to legalize sports betting in the state -- which was struck down by a federal judge -- has vowed to take the case to the Supreme Court if necessary.