What is the liklihood of Casino cheating at VP?

[Tedlark]

  Why was she the EX casino manager?

[ko king]

  Why was she the EX casino manager?

I think I see where you're going with this question and I don't know to many people who aren't EX something or another. In fact when most dirty little secrets are revealed 9 out of 10 times it will be an EX spilling the beans, that rule of thumb stands true in life, love and business.

[chucknorris5]

Why wouldn't it be cheating if the casino sets the game at 9/6 but it actually pays out inconsistent with that pay table? To me, that is cheating. I also question how a gaming commission monitor checks up on casinos? How well is he or she trained? What tools do they have to do such checks? What is the likelihood that these people are coopted by the very casinos purport to regulate since they are on premises every day with the same people. It just has been my experience most recently at Horseshoe Indiana that their deuces wild games do not generate the same frequency of deuces as thy they used to before they put in the new machines.

[ko king]

Why wouldn't it be cheating if the casino sets the game at 9/6 but it actually pays out inconsistent with that pay table? To me, that is cheating. I also question how a gaming commission monitor checks up on casinos? How well is he or she trained? What tools do they have to do such checks? What is the likelihood that these people are coopted by the very casinos purport to regulate since they are on premises every day with the same people. It just has been my experience most recently at Horseshoe Indiana that their deuces wild games do not generate the same frequency of deuces as thy they used to before they put in the new machines.
The only place I have ever seen the payback percentage or vp statistics listed is via the internet, I wouldn't have any idea how often a player should hit a royal flush, aces or a full house if the info wasn't provided by sites like this. I've never seen a casino advertise a list of this type of info and I've never read all the regulations concerning gaming for any particular state but I bet it doesn't say a machine should deliver a royal flush once every 40K hands on average. All I see when I walk up to play a vp game is the paytables, the odds and statistics I know weren't provided by casinos.I really don't see it as cheating because if you hit a full house it pays 45 credits, if you hit a flush it pays 30 credits. In all my years of playing I've never seen a casino advertise how often a vp machine should deliver any hand in particular. I'd be interested to know if the state gaming folks even use figures like we see posted on this site to determine if a program is acceptable or not. Some of the info I've gathered may or may not be true but I was told once by a machine tech that he thought there was like 13 RNG programs that had been approved by that state, why 13 isn't 1 enough. I'm really not sure what's going on anymore but for years I never questioned that 98.98% payback percentage because it pretty much stood true but for the last few years it ain't happeneing for me. 

[olds442jetaway]

Anyone can go to American Casino Guide's website and easily see the slot payback percentages. For Ct., they get the information from the Ct. Dept of Special Revenue. For quarter or dollar slots which include vp, ( lumped together as far as I know) the returns are in the 92-93 percent range. I don't think we can get info strictly for vp. I am afraid though the vp machines are also returning in that range. I have no specific data other than the above and my experience. The above numbers are for quarter and dollar games. Penny results are much lower. Sure they will pay according to the pay table just as any slot will pay according to its schedule. But do they really operate on a completely random rng? I don't know if we will ever find this out. All I know is I have a -8% return per year for the last 4 years. That is on 99.5% vp and minimal play on slots. That also is on machines with paytables 97.5%-99.54% heavily weighted in the 99% direction. I know how to play all of the games correctly. My mistakes due to sticky buttons, errors, etc. would be miniscule. Here is the important part at least for me. 92% return and over 2 million hands in that time period. I guess I will always wonder as long as I am playing vp. Another rub. I have a couple of slot only buddies who play about as much as I do. Their returns are 90%-93%. I have one friend who is the exception because he knows enough to quit when he is up just a little.

[Vman96]

Why wouldn't it be cheating if the casino sets the game at 9/6 but it actually pays out inconsistent with that pay table? To me, that is cheating. I also question how a gaming commission monitor checks up on casinos? How well is he or she trained? What tools do they have to do such checks? What is the likelihood that these people are coopted by the very casinos purport to regulate since they are on premises every day with the same people. It just has been my experience most recently at Horseshoe Indiana that their deuces wild games do not generate the same frequency of deuces as thy they used to before they put in the new machines.

It should be cheating in Indiana, but when I reread the state regulations, it was less clear than I would like it to be. However from what I have read from others online, horseshoes good games have all been yanked, so believe it or not, seeing poor paytables likely means it's dealt from a random, standard deck. If it was rigged, they would just leave it at 9/6.

As for your deuces drought, hard to say unless you record how many deuces you began with every hand, and how many you finished with every hand. If your concerns are about not hitting 4 deuces yet, your sample size is likely too small.

As for my 13 years of sporadic quarter deuces play (in Dos Equis's guy voice): "I don't always play quarter deuces, but when I do, I never get 4 deuces." But my sample size isn't big enough to call it rigged yet.

But I have got nickel deuces maybe 8 times, including during my only visit to Southern Indiana.

The only place I have ever seen the payback percentage or vp statistics listed is via the internet, I wouldn't have any idea how often a player should hit a royal flush, aces or a full house if the info wasn't provided by sites like this. I've never seen a casino advertise a list of this type of info and I've never read all the regulations concerning gaming for any particular state but I bet it doesn't say a machine should deliver a royal flush once every 40K hands on average.

At Illinois bars/restaurants (not casinos), they are required to list the probabilities for making every hand when using optimal strategy and betting one credit. Of course, betting one credit gives you a royal probability of about one in 50,000 since a royal is only worth 250 for 1.

[olds442jetaway]

My deuces hits over millions of hands are right on track along with aces quads. The one that continues to elude my play is the Royal. Now more than 200k hands without one on the deal line. I forget what it is or exactly how to do it, but the probability of missing the Royal in 200k hands is pretty small. Maybe around 3%?

[Vman96]

My deuces hits over millions of hands are right on track along with aces quads. The one that continues to elude my play is the Royal. Now more than 200k hands without one on the deal line. I forget what it is or exactly how to do it, but the probability of missing the Royal in 200k hands is pretty small. Maybe around 3%?

On single line going 200k hands without a Royal? it's the probability of NOT making a Royal on any hand raised to the power of the number of hands missed.

So for 9/6 JoB exculsively it would be: (40389.55/40390.55)^200000 = 0.71%, so even worse. :(

Closer to 1% if you have been mostly playing deuces.

[DaBurglar]

Man oh man, I leave for a few days and look what pops up YET AGAIN.....well, as I mentione din another thread, I am still in AC, and I have yet to report on my trip and the closing of the AC club (happening as we speak and BOY is it a fiasco!)
 
For now, let me just say I like this thread and the view points everyone has, even EDOG's insistence that we are all "STOOPID" and "DUM" for playing at casinos we think might be cheating or otherwise doing something that is not accounted for in our strategy books!    I guess Edog never heard of "cognitive dissonance", or has never played the role of Devil's Advocate, or been a pessimist in his life......good for him if that's the case, BOO for him if its not since that would make him a snotty hypocrite for calling us dumb.....for now I will choose to believe the former.
 
 
Spxchrome's input about the "Ex" saying she would never play VP at her former work place is easy to believe....I have been told essentially the same thing by several people in AC, all of them are either casino management or exec types or slot techs , and I have mentioned this a number of times in past posts dealing with why I feel and believe what I do about AC!  
 
And regarding what SPX said about how the only random part of the process these days is the FLOP, and the draw is based on the return % set by the casino is EXACTLY the mechanism that I have believed is at work here in AC which explains all these "DUD"/ZERO VALUE hands certain machines spit out.....I have had LONNNNNG spells where repeatedly I get 20-30 duds in a row, my dud rate exceeds 65-70% sometimes (and as I said many times already, averages out way above the expected 55% rate a normal machine deals)......and even in AC casinos that I believe leave their machines alone for the most part (like Borgata and possibly Harrahs, simply because they are healthy and profitable) they possibly may "adjust" a VP machine once in a while depending on what the machine has paid out in recent history,  i.e.  the example sighted earlier of the guy Jeter saw at harrahs who hit 13K in a matter of an hour.....
 
One of the big reasons, besides my glaring actual play results, I believe what I do is what people (in the casinos and the gaming control offices) have said, or failed to say, in regards to VP in AC.   Just like SPX, we sometimes do not even realize what a person is telling us until LONG after they have told us, and the relevance and application of the "pearl of wisdom" or insight becomes manifest!  
 
 
I be back later this weekend after football to check in
 
 
 
Edited to add real quick:   One thing I will say about using input from "ex" or even current employees at specific casinos......unless you have been specifically told by the person that it is ok to include "details" about that person (like their "name".  or even their exact position in the exact casino you met them in,), its best to leave out that stuff lest you cause someone (including yourself) unforeseen unintended grief or harm.    And of course, take everything with a grain of salt when using the feedback from "ex" or disgruntled curtrent employees.

[edog743]

Da, I am the eternal pessimist. Going to the casino knowing you are going to get cheated,or knowing something just is not right, is akin to banging your head against the wall. Sooner or later you are going realize that doesn't feel so pretty good and stop. I guess none of you are there yet.