Had to share

[DaBurglar]

  I've got a few upcomings posts where I'll get into this in more dept. but for now it's all smiles and happy days.

Roveer
Gahhhhh!     I am totally anxious to hear this so please do not wait too long before sharing!    And regarding the comment you made in the other post reply to my post, where you state how you NEVER hit anything on the boardwalk (you said th emost you ever hit was $1250!?!?!).......this essentially jives with what I have been surmising and theorizing, and concluding all along, that the AC casinos (most of them) treat their VP machines like SLOT machines and set them accordingly to return appalingly low percentages back to players, regardless of what the paytables imply.    In fact, since my own limited play in the marina has been slightly more positive than the horrible boardwalk play, I have seen what you see......it still annoys me though that Video Poker in AC is so different than anywhere else.

[DaBurglar]

I do wonder though how many CET players have a tier score of 239K on march 20. That's 2.3 mill though the machines so far this year.Hardly. While that is an impressive score, it doesn't imply that much play. For the record, my tier score is currently 120K (about half of what Roveer claims), but I've actually played about $700K and had 50K in bonuses. Each day you earn 5K or more in credits ($50K), you get a 10K bonus on your tier score.I don't know how many 10K bonuses Roveer has earned this year, but it's probably 10 or more. That means 239K in tier credits would be more like $1.3 million in coin-in. An impressive amount to be sure and considerably more than I've played. But not at all the same as $2.3 million.BobOk, BOB (intentionally spelled CORRECTLY), its time to chime in on the issue you have diplomatically (or not) tap danced around in this forum.......why is ATlantic city video poker so different (in a bad, horrible way) than Nevada Video Poker, as well as other localities???What do you KNOW from your vast experience, knowledge, contacts, etc  regarding how and why AC video Poker has evolved into the god awful crappy mess it is today?      What do you SEE when you read the New Jersey Gaming Regulations, where Video Poker is just another form of "SLOTS", except for the blurb where it states games of strategy must show the player enough info for "flawless" decision making to be possible for the player?    Surely you must know people like ME, Bob, who have played in AC and have also played extensively in Nevada (Vegas, Reno etc) and have reported the same problem or situation:    I say that the gaming regs for New jersey, clearly ALLOW casinos to do what I know they are doing, which is setting the VP machines to deal more dud/zero value hands to bring the overall return DOWN into "Slot machine ranges of 85 to 90%"  regardless of what the paytable says or indicates.....aside from my play results screaming such a thing is happening, other players in AC i Have met or know agree with me and even the people I have spoken to in the gaming control office (LOCATED on Tennessee Avenue in AC) have told me NOTHING to disprove this possibility.

[roveer]

I do wonder though how many CET players have a tier score of 239K on march 20. That's 2.3 mill though the machines so far this year.Hardly. While that is an impressive score, it doesn't imply that much play. For the record, my tier score is currently 120K (about half of what Roveer claims), but I've actually played about $700K and had 50K in bonuses. Each day you earn 5K or more in credits ($50K), you get a 10K bonus on your tier score.I don't know how many 10K bonuses Roveer has earned this year, but it's probably 10 or more. That means 239K in tier credits would be more like $1.3 million in coin-in. An impressive amount to be sure and considerably more than I've played. But not at all the same as $2.3 million.Bob 

Bob, you are absolutely right. I totally forgot about the 10k bonus when I did the math at 4:30 in the morning. I've probably had 10 10K bonus's like you said and my coin-in is probably around what you calculated. Thanks for "waking me up". I'd still like to know where I stand as far as other VP players at Harrah's. They tend to keep their numbers pretty well locked up.

I've been invited to dinner this week with the Exec host and the Exec of slots to provide input on Harrah's gaming in AC. I will tell you that this past week I got the ear of a slot tech putting my STP machines back in service. I was telling him how I wasn't happy that they took the 10 handed dollar denomination off of almost all of the STP machines in the casino leaving me with just 3 machines that had 10 handed dollar games. I really didn't expect much, kind of "we do what we are told", but then he offered to have his boss (slot manager) come down and talk to me. I said sure. 15 minutes later I had the Harrah's AC slot manager standing in front of me. What happened next blows my mind. Since I was working on a post dedicated to this experience I won't pollute this thread any further. Watch for my post. I'll try and do it tonight.

Bob, thanks for your input.

[roveer]

[QUOTE=roveer]  I've got a few upcomings posts where I'll get into this in more dept. but for now it's all smiles and happy days.

Roveer
Gahhhhh!     I am totally anxious to hear this so please do not wait too long before sharing!    And regarding the comment you made in the other post reply to my post, where you state how you NEVER hit anything on the boardwalk (you said th emost you ever hit was $1250!?!?!).......this essentially jives with what I have been surmising and theorizing, and concluding all along, that the AC casinos (most of them) treat their VP machines like SLOT machines and set them accordingly to return appalingly low percentages back to players, regardless of what the paytables imply.    In fact, since my own limited play in the marina has been slightly more positive than the horrible boardwalk play, I have seen what you see......it still annoys me though that Video Poker in AC is so different than anywhere else.[/QUOTE]

What daburglar is referring to here is something we found and reported a while back. This is where in the AC CC commision regulations regarding VP seem to be written in such a way as to classify VP as a "slot device" and therefore allowing them to not have to follow the pay table statistics and allowing them to return percentages well below the norm for true playing VP.

As some will know the "chips" in all vp machines are based on Jurisdictions:

Cruise Lines   Domestic: CRUIS
Military       Air Force: AIRF   
Military       Army: ARMY   
Military       Navy: NAVY   
Alabama        Class 2 NIGC: C2NIGC
Arizona        Arizona Native American: AZI   
Arizona        Arizona Native American (Class 2): C2AZI
Arizona        Class 2 NIGC: C2NIGC
Arkansas       Arkansas: ARK
California     California Native American: CAI   
California     California Native American, Pala: CAIPA
California     Class 2 NIGC: C2NIGC
Colorado       Colorado: CO   
Connecticut    Connecticut Native American: CTI   
Delaware       Delaware Lottery: DEL   C2NIGC
Florida        Class 2 NIGC: C2NIGC   
Florida        Florida: FL   
Florida        Florida Native American: FLI   
Florida        Florida Native American (Class 2): C2FLI   
Idaho          Idaho Native American: IDI
IL             Illinois Illinois: IL   
Illinois       Illinois Lottery Limited: ILLL   
Indiana        Indiana: IN
Indiana        Indiana Racetracks: INT
Indiana        Indiana Riverboats
Table Games:   1IN
Iowa           Iowa: IA
Iowa           Iowa Native American: IAI   
Kansas        Class 2 NIGC: C2NIGC   
Kansas        Kansas Lottery: KSL
Kansas        Kansas Native American: KSI
Louisiana      Louisiana Gaming: LA   
Louisiana      Louisiana Lottery: LAL   
Louisiana      Louisiana Native American: LAI
Louisiana      Louisiana Riverboat: 1LA
Maine          Maine: ME
Maryland       Maryland: MD
Michigan       Michigan Gaming: MI   
Michigan       Michigan Native American: MII
Minnesota      Class 2 NIGC: C2NIGC
Minnesota      Minnesota Native American: MNI   
Mississippi    Mississippi: MS
Mississippi    Mississippi Native American: MSI   
Missouri       Missouri: MO   C2NIGC
Montana        Montana Class 2 NIGC: C2NIGC
Montana        Montana: MT MTI Montana Montana Native American: MTI
Nevada        Nevada: NV
NJ New Jersey New Jersey: NJ
New Mexico     Class 2 NIGC: C2NIGC
New Mexico     New Mexico: NM   
New Mexico     New Mexico Native American: NMI
New Mexico     New Mexico, Race Tracks: NMT
New York       Class 2 NIGC:
New York       New York Lottery: NYL
New York       New York Native American: NYI
New York       New York Native American, Onieda: NYION   
North Carolina North Carolina Gaming Machine: NCR
North Carolina North Carolina Native American: NCI
North Dakota   North Dakota Native American: NDI
Ohio           Ohio: OH   
Oklahoma       Class 2 NIGC: C2NIGC
Oklahoma       Oklahoma: OK
Oklahoma       Oklahoma Native American: OKI   
Oregon        Oregon Lottery: ORL
Oregon        Oregon Native American: ORI
Pennsylvania   Pennsylvania Gaming: PEN
Rhode Island   Rhode Island Lottery: RIL   
South Dakota   Class 2 NIGC: C2NIGC
South Dakota   South Dakota: SD
South Dakota   South Dakota Native American: SDI
Texas          Texas Native American - Kickapoo (Class II): C2TXK
Washington     Class 2 NIGC: C2NIGC   
Washington     Washinton Native American: WAI
West Virginia West Virginia Lottery: WVL
West Virginia West Virginia Lottery Limited: WVLL
Wisconsin      Class 2 NIGC: C2NIGC
Wisconsin      Wisconsin Native American: WII
Wyoming        Wyoming Native American: WYI

which gives even more power to this theory. I've tried to get information about the NJ chip and how it would differ from say Vegas where I believe the regulations (Nevada gaming regulations 14.040) stipulate that the machine play true to the pay tables, but have not had any success.

What I can say to Daburglar is this. I have had appallingly bad results in all the gambling jurisdictions in which I have played. I left borgata because I didn't seem to ever win and seemed to do better at Harrahs. I've gambled at Caesars AC as well as Tropicana AC and didn't seem to ever win much there. I also for whatever reasons seem to like Harrahs better. It's my home casino. Borgata is nicer but harrahs is more of what I like. I also get the advantage of being part of the CET network of casinos something borgata, Tropicana or trump could never offer. I've gone toCaesars LV and only had a single hand pay. As far as im concerned it's all randomly random from my point of view. That being said I'm still interested in unravelling the mystery of "slot devices" and will do what I can to contribute to the eventual finding of the truth.

Oh, Pretty cool getting a smack down by Bob Dancer. Glad to see he's following my posts.

Return

[Tedlark]

  roveer have you read the entire section of the NJ gaming regs and the seperate information in it for video poker? I think that has been discussed as well.

[DaBurglar]

thanks for that info roveer......regarding what you said about not having much luck in ALL jurisdictions, I find this compelling and extremely relevant in today's gaming market for video poker players for this reason only:IT IS ABSOLUTELY NO LONGER POSSIBLE, no matter where you play or what you do strategy wise, to come out ahead playing video poker, unless you just flat out get amazingly lucky and then QUIT before you give it back, but then that's the same with all gambling isnt it?What I really mean is the days of sustained, steady "Profitable play" are long gone, not only because paytables have been torched but also the randomization techniques used by todays chips and machines makes it supremely hard to hit those long sustained "pay cycles" of yesteryear.....Now before people blow a clot, I am NOT including those of you who want to "play games within the games" with the accounting, by including comps and freebies and all that.....sure if you include everything up to and including "free valet coupons" you might wind up with a positive dollar value for the entire experience, but it will not last and will not be something you can count on or pull off everyyear or whenever you want....not like it used to be back in the 1990s before casinos became hyper-competitive and the advent of the information overload now available to casino exec's, that allow them to spot those of us smart players taking advantage of all the holes in the system to rack up small or even large profits at the casino's expense.I have noticed this since around 2006....prior to that, I had several profitable years in vegas, and a couple break evens....since then, its been one big HOLE, down which what funds i CHOOSE to play with eventually disappear and not nearly as much come back in any form, either winnings or comps.Its just the plain truth kids....only people PLAYING and making money are the bob dancers and the handful of similar "gurus" out there in the world, because, well, he/they got there FIRST......and by continuing to allow these few gurus to do what they do, the casinos get the rest of us players to continue to carry the torch of "Video Poker CAN BE profitable" illusions

[roveer]

  roveer have you read the entire section of the NJ gaming regs and the seperate information in it for video poker? I think that has been discussed as well. You know, I started reading it a while back and then dropped it.  It's frustrating because it's written with so many spotty areas that should be so black and white.  I know from working with contracts that it's not always easy to write clear and concise documents and when folks like us (the players) read this stuff with our vision of how it should look it never matches up.  When I get my conspiritorial hat on I'll go back and give it another read.  Will probably just create more questions than answers. Roveer 

[olds442jetaway]

Somewhere somehow out there is someone that has first hand information on these latest vp machines. If they are not using completely random rng programs, I want to NO I demand an answer from the casinos and specifically if they are following the pattern that so many of us are experiencing. That is having player returns in that 83-90 percent range allowed by regulation. For now, I will have to assume that answer is yes since vp and slot return percentages are lumped together when made available to the public. If that is not the case, I would hope someone in authority from one of the casinos would chime in here, and give us a straight answer for a change.

[roveer]

Somewhere somehow out there is someone that has first hand information on these latest vp machines. If they are not using completely random rng programs, I want to NO I demand an answer from the casinos and specifically if they are following the pattern that so many of us are experiencing. That is having player returns in that 83-90 percent range allowed by regulation. For now, I will have to assume that answer is yes since vp and slot return percentages are lumped together when made available to the public. If that is not the case, I would hope someone in authority from one of the casinos would chime in here, and give us a straight answer for a change.

If I'm not mistaken (and I often am), I believe the lowest VP return percentage is 93%. Can someone confirm this.

[DaBurglar]

   If I'm not mistaken (and I often am), I believe the lowest VP return percentage is 93%. Can someone confirm this.Wait.....do you mean, "lowest return percent" based on a paytable  is a paytable that returns 93%?      By that I obviously mean there is some game whereby the paytable when played optimum strategy only returns at best a horrid 93%.....ORAre you asking something else?