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The biggest issues with AC now are PA, Resorts World in NY, and Maryland. There is no good reason for the most important demographic (the penny slot player) to go to AC anymore. New Jersey blew it, plain and simple. They were stupid enough to think they would be the only game in town forever. They should have had a game plan started when they first saw the riverboats in the Midwest opening.
Also gaming is struggling generally too because people my age and under don't really want to gamble. They would just rather party. It's rare when I see someone younger than myself playing a machine.
casino integrity
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olds442jetaway
- Video Poker Master
- Posts: 10751
- Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:08 pm
Regarding "more play= more profits", i could not agree more. But, what happes when you get less play. What happens when gaming revenue drops by almost almost one half over a 7 year time period. As a casino owner, do you just stand by and watch your business go under, or are you tempted to try anything? Every business has an absolute minimum amout of revenue requirement to meet fixed expenses. One may not agree that machines are being fixed, but, to assume that casio operators are not smart enough to know how to reduce payouts seems naive. Even the most ardent supporters of casino integrity acknowledge that slot payouts have been reduced. I originally brought up this topic because i wanted to know if other VP players has noticed the same thing as i did. My experience has been that since approx 2009, the cost of playing vp at the casinos had increased by a factor of 2-3 times.
What bothers me here in Ct. and I'm sure other places report the same way is that public records of player returns from the two Ct casinos lump slot and vp together since vp machines are considered to be slots to. These are in the 91% range. Assuming that is correct, than either true slot machines pay much less than 91% since they are lumped in with vp supposedly higher percentages, or vp returns are in fact also in that 91-92 range. If that is the case, even factoring in player error of a point or so, vp returns do not match paytables in Ct. I have been unable to get a straight answer on this and I don't think we ever will. I am sure the casinos have these records, but unless the state requires the player returns be listed separately or classify vp machines differently than slots, they are never going to disclose this information to the public.
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BillyJoe
- Video Poker Master
- Posts: 3198
- Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 2:00 pm
Regarding "more play= more profits", i could not agree more. But, what happes when you get less play. What happens when gaming revenue drops by almost almost one half over a 7 year time period. As a casino owner, do you just stand by and watch your business go under, or are you tempted to try anything? Every business has an absolute minimum amout of revenue requirement to meet fixed expenses. One may not agree that machines are being fixed, but, to assume that casio operators are not smart enough to know how to reduce payouts seems naive. Even the most ardent supporters of casino integrity acknowledge that slot payouts have been reduced. I originally brought up this topic because i wanted to know if other VP players has noticed the same thing as i did. My experience has been that since approx 2009, the cost of playing vp at the casinos had increased by a factor of 2-3 times.
Slot payouts are a different animal, Notes1. That is why, IMO, there are far more slot machines than VP machines now - because the payout percentages CAN be adjusted to a lower level fairly easily, and legally.
Illegally putting additional software on top of a VP machine to control payouts is very different. I just do not believe that some disgruntled employee would not have sold that story to some magazine by now if that was the case.
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BillyJoe
- Video Poker Master
- Posts: 3198
- Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 2:00 pm
Also gaming is struggling generally too because people my age and under don't really want to gamble. They would just rather party. It's rare when I see someone younger than myself playing a machine.
Hey - I resemble that remark. I'm still young at heart.
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spxChrome
- VP Veteran
- Posts: 819
- Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 9:21 pm
[QUOTE=notes1]
Regarding "more play= more profits", i could not agree more. But, what happes when you get less play. What happens when gaming revenue drops by almost almost one half over a 7 year time period. As a casino owner, do you just stand by and watch your business go under, or are you tempted to try anything? Every business has an absolute minimum amout of revenue requirement to meet fixed expenses. One may not agree that machines are being fixed, but, to assume that casio operators are not smart enough to know how to reduce payouts seems naive. Even the most ardent supporters of casino integrity acknowledge that slot payouts have been reduced. I originally brought up this topic because i wanted to know if other VP players has noticed the same thing as i did. My experience has been that since approx 2009, the cost of playing vp at the casinos had increased by a factor of 2-3 times.
Slot payouts are a different animal, Notes1. That is why, IMO, there are far more slot machines than VP machines now - because the payout percentages CAN be adjusted to a lower level fairly easily, and legally.
Illegally putting additional software on top of a VP machine to control payouts is very different. I just do not believe that some disgruntled employee would not have sold that story to some magazine by now if that was the case. [/QUOTE]
I don't think anything illegal is going on I think they are bending the rules jumping through loopholes.
Maybe the RNG is only valid pre-deal after the deal there is more control?
Maybe the machine has to deal out a certain number of premium hands and it only does so at lower denominations or at 1 credit level. But still satisfying the overall balance of the hands.
Maybe the life of a machine is 10 years of play and any machine above a certain payback % on the short-term is removed.
Who knows... all we can do is speculate and look at numbers of what is suppose to happen but for those of us who play regularly notice the difference.
And about selling a story it must be a rather heavy fine or tight disclosure agreement because I have never heard from an IGT programmer... ever. Be it good or bad.
Even if you ask IGT they just ignore you. Why not publish when you draw this happens when you deal this happens. What can that hurt?
Regarding "more play= more profits", i could not agree more. But, what happes when you get less play. What happens when gaming revenue drops by almost almost one half over a 7 year time period. As a casino owner, do you just stand by and watch your business go under, or are you tempted to try anything? Every business has an absolute minimum amout of revenue requirement to meet fixed expenses. One may not agree that machines are being fixed, but, to assume that casio operators are not smart enough to know how to reduce payouts seems naive. Even the most ardent supporters of casino integrity acknowledge that slot payouts have been reduced. I originally brought up this topic because i wanted to know if other VP players has noticed the same thing as i did. My experience has been that since approx 2009, the cost of playing vp at the casinos had increased by a factor of 2-3 times.
Slot payouts are a different animal, Notes1. That is why, IMO, there are far more slot machines than VP machines now - because the payout percentages CAN be adjusted to a lower level fairly easily, and legally.
Illegally putting additional software on top of a VP machine to control payouts is very different. I just do not believe that some disgruntled employee would not have sold that story to some magazine by now if that was the case. [/QUOTE]
I don't think anything illegal is going on I think they are bending the rules jumping through loopholes.
Maybe the RNG is only valid pre-deal after the deal there is more control?
Maybe the machine has to deal out a certain number of premium hands and it only does so at lower denominations or at 1 credit level. But still satisfying the overall balance of the hands.
Maybe the life of a machine is 10 years of play and any machine above a certain payback % on the short-term is removed.
Who knows... all we can do is speculate and look at numbers of what is suppose to happen but for those of us who play regularly notice the difference.
And about selling a story it must be a rather heavy fine or tight disclosure agreement because I have never heard from an IGT programmer... ever. Be it good or bad.
Even if you ask IGT they just ignore you. Why not publish when you draw this happens when you deal this happens. What can that hurt?
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BillyJoe
- Video Poker Master
- Posts: 3198
- Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 2:00 pm
I don't think this will convince the skeptics, but here is a very recent article on the way VP cards are displayed.
Ask the Slot Expert: How Video Poker Machines Deal
3 September 2014
By John Robison, Slot Expert™
On the IGT video poker machines I play in Atlantic City, they used to deal you 10 cards, five you could see and five cards behind them (I've heard them called shadow cards). Now they deal you five cards on the initial hand, and the next five are continuously being shuffled by the RNG.
I've talked to some players that say it doesn't matter how they're dealt. Most, like myself, haven't hit a royal or a wild royal in Jacks or Better or Double Joker Poker since the casinos made the change on how they deal the cards. I would always hit one or two wild royals in Double Joker or four deuces for $1000 each trip to the casino. I would hold four to the royal and have a 1 in 47 chance to hit that royal, and a lot of times the royal was there.
If it doesn't matter dealing five or 10 cards, why did the casinos want it changed? Also when I discard the cards I don't want in the hand, how do I receive one of the same cards on the draw I discarded?
Video poker machines used to select the 10 cards that might be needed to complete a hand when you pressed the Draw button. The five cards not displayed as part of the dealt hand were used to replace any cards you discarded.
The dealing method was changed to make it more difficult to cheat the machines. There's a principle in slot machine programming: Any time a machine is sitting with a result locked in, it is vulnerable to being cheated.
And that's exactly what happened. A group of cheats figured out the RNG function in a video poker machine and they were able to determine what the five hidden cards were. As a result, they were able to do things like throw away a dealt flush because they knew a four-of-a-kind was in the hidden cards. By changing the programming to continue shuffling the electronic deck between deal and draw, the manufacturers made this kind of cheating impossible.
When do you think this programming change was made? I infer that you think it was just a few years ago. This change was actually made over a decade ago. It's possible that you've been playing machines that deal this way for many, many years.
It doesn't matter how the cards are dealt. Each card is equally likely to be chosen for the dealt hand, and each remaining card is equally likely to be chosen to replace a discard.
And speaking of discards, it's very unlikely that you got back a card you discarded on the draw. If you're sure that you did get a card back, that's a machine malfunction. Immediately call a slot floorperson and ask him to review the machine's log to see what cards you were dealt and what cards you received on the draw to verify the malfunction. If he verifies the malfunction, he should then take the machine out of service pending further investigation.
Also, for those interested in how a SLOT machine can be changed, I offer this..
From an article from The New York Times entitled "From the Back Office, a Casino Can Change the Slot Machine in Seconds".
The article is about the testing of a technology called Downloadable Games at Treasure Island in Las Vegas and Barona Casino in San Diego. On a machine that does not support Downloadable Games, the casino has to swap one or more chips in the machine to change denomination or long-term payback and the casino also has to change the glass if it wants to change the machine to a different game.
On machines that support Downloadable Games, the change can be pushed down to one or more machines from a central system. No need to open the machine or swap chips or glass. Everything is video.
Justin Beltram, who was Director of Slot Operations at Treasure Island at the time, was interviewed for the article. Although technically possible, he "insists he does not plan to capriciously change the odds, which he said would be bad for repeat business and could run afoul of regulators." He also said that fierce competition for slot machine players would keep him from playing fast and loose with his odds.
Even if he wanted to, he could not capriciously change the odds on a machine. He would still have to purchase the new long-term payback program from the manufacturer. Then he could queue the change, but it could not be made until the machine has been idle for four minutes, and then the machine has to remain locked for play for another four minutes and display a message that a change is being made to the machine's configuration. Oh, and the State of Nevada also needs to be notified of the change.
Some more interesting dialog from this Slot Expert..
Most, if not all, jurisdictions have slot regulations that require that the machine show the result determined by the RNG with absolutely no alterations. But this was not always the case.
In the 80s, one of the early computer-controlled slots was made by Universal. The software in these machines chose either a specific winning combination or loser. If loser was the result of the spin, the machine selected a losing combination from a table of losing combinations that contained a high percentage of near misses. The psychology behind this method is that a losing combination of jackpot-jackpot-blank is more exciting than bar-bar-blank and, as you pointed out, might lead some people to think that the machine is close to paying. Because high-paying symbols landed on the payline more frequently when they were part of a losing combination than when they were part of a winning combination, this "secondary decision" of choosing a losing combination was deemed deceptive. It made it seem like hitting the jackpot was more likely than it really was.
As a result, Nevada changed its slot regulations to require that the output from the RNG be used to choose which symbols land on the payline and that the result cannot be altered in any way. New Jersey, the only other gaming jurisdiction at the time, followed suit and all Universal machines had to be re-programmed to follow the new regulations.
Today's reel-spinning slot machines still have near misses, but they're all a result of how the virtual reel are laid out. Near-the-payline near misses occur because the blanks above and below the jackpot symbol appear more times on the virtual reel than the jackpot symbol. On-the-payline near misses occur because the jackpot symbol appears more times on the first two virtual reels than on the third. In both cases, the symbols land on the payline with a frequency directly related to how many times they appear on the virtual reel.
Near misses may be great "fish that got away" stories, but thinking that a near miss means a machine is close is nonsense
Ask the Slot Expert: How Video Poker Machines Deal
3 September 2014
By John Robison, Slot Expert™
On the IGT video poker machines I play in Atlantic City, they used to deal you 10 cards, five you could see and five cards behind them (I've heard them called shadow cards). Now they deal you five cards on the initial hand, and the next five are continuously being shuffled by the RNG.
I've talked to some players that say it doesn't matter how they're dealt. Most, like myself, haven't hit a royal or a wild royal in Jacks or Better or Double Joker Poker since the casinos made the change on how they deal the cards. I would always hit one or two wild royals in Double Joker or four deuces for $1000 each trip to the casino. I would hold four to the royal and have a 1 in 47 chance to hit that royal, and a lot of times the royal was there.
If it doesn't matter dealing five or 10 cards, why did the casinos want it changed? Also when I discard the cards I don't want in the hand, how do I receive one of the same cards on the draw I discarded?
Video poker machines used to select the 10 cards that might be needed to complete a hand when you pressed the Draw button. The five cards not displayed as part of the dealt hand were used to replace any cards you discarded.
The dealing method was changed to make it more difficult to cheat the machines. There's a principle in slot machine programming: Any time a machine is sitting with a result locked in, it is vulnerable to being cheated.
And that's exactly what happened. A group of cheats figured out the RNG function in a video poker machine and they were able to determine what the five hidden cards were. As a result, they were able to do things like throw away a dealt flush because they knew a four-of-a-kind was in the hidden cards. By changing the programming to continue shuffling the electronic deck between deal and draw, the manufacturers made this kind of cheating impossible.
When do you think this programming change was made? I infer that you think it was just a few years ago. This change was actually made over a decade ago. It's possible that you've been playing machines that deal this way for many, many years.
It doesn't matter how the cards are dealt. Each card is equally likely to be chosen for the dealt hand, and each remaining card is equally likely to be chosen to replace a discard.
And speaking of discards, it's very unlikely that you got back a card you discarded on the draw. If you're sure that you did get a card back, that's a machine malfunction. Immediately call a slot floorperson and ask him to review the machine's log to see what cards you were dealt and what cards you received on the draw to verify the malfunction. If he verifies the malfunction, he should then take the machine out of service pending further investigation.
Also, for those interested in how a SLOT machine can be changed, I offer this..
From an article from The New York Times entitled "From the Back Office, a Casino Can Change the Slot Machine in Seconds".
The article is about the testing of a technology called Downloadable Games at Treasure Island in Las Vegas and Barona Casino in San Diego. On a machine that does not support Downloadable Games, the casino has to swap one or more chips in the machine to change denomination or long-term payback and the casino also has to change the glass if it wants to change the machine to a different game.
On machines that support Downloadable Games, the change can be pushed down to one or more machines from a central system. No need to open the machine or swap chips or glass. Everything is video.
Justin Beltram, who was Director of Slot Operations at Treasure Island at the time, was interviewed for the article. Although technically possible, he "insists he does not plan to capriciously change the odds, which he said would be bad for repeat business and could run afoul of regulators." He also said that fierce competition for slot machine players would keep him from playing fast and loose with his odds.
Even if he wanted to, he could not capriciously change the odds on a machine. He would still have to purchase the new long-term payback program from the manufacturer. Then he could queue the change, but it could not be made until the machine has been idle for four minutes, and then the machine has to remain locked for play for another four minutes and display a message that a change is being made to the machine's configuration. Oh, and the State of Nevada also needs to be notified of the change.
Some more interesting dialog from this Slot Expert..
Most, if not all, jurisdictions have slot regulations that require that the machine show the result determined by the RNG with absolutely no alterations. But this was not always the case.
In the 80s, one of the early computer-controlled slots was made by Universal. The software in these machines chose either a specific winning combination or loser. If loser was the result of the spin, the machine selected a losing combination from a table of losing combinations that contained a high percentage of near misses. The psychology behind this method is that a losing combination of jackpot-jackpot-blank is more exciting than bar-bar-blank and, as you pointed out, might lead some people to think that the machine is close to paying. Because high-paying symbols landed on the payline more frequently when they were part of a losing combination than when they were part of a winning combination, this "secondary decision" of choosing a losing combination was deemed deceptive. It made it seem like hitting the jackpot was more likely than it really was.
As a result, Nevada changed its slot regulations to require that the output from the RNG be used to choose which symbols land on the payline and that the result cannot be altered in any way. New Jersey, the only other gaming jurisdiction at the time, followed suit and all Universal machines had to be re-programmed to follow the new regulations.
Today's reel-spinning slot machines still have near misses, but they're all a result of how the virtual reel are laid out. Near-the-payline near misses occur because the blanks above and below the jackpot symbol appear more times on the virtual reel than the jackpot symbol. On-the-payline near misses occur because the jackpot symbol appears more times on the first two virtual reels than on the third. In both cases, the symbols land on the payline with a frequency directly related to how many times they appear on the virtual reel.
Near misses may be great "fish that got away" stories, but thinking that a near miss means a machine is close is nonsense
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DaBurglar
- Video Poker Master
- Posts: 4535
- Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:11 pm
I love threads like this, everyone has something interesting to say, whether you agree with it or not.....and we can always count on billjyoe for a classic like "rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic" to help slam home a point with style!And even "baloney" is good once in a while I always say!
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DaBurglar
- Video Poker Master
- Posts: 4535
- Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:11 pm
ok well it's late and I have a slight fever, but after reading the posted info from Billyjoe (thanks by the way william for that very interesting stuff), I am totally confused by what this guy seems to be saying or indicating......I myself have said many times that i CHOOSE to still believe (for the most part) that Video Poker and even slots in any given casino and on any given machine are set to operate properly and fairly (as allowed by the regs of that particular region.) But I also hold to the principle that there is possible shady operations happening ... whether intentional or thru possible negligence/incompetence ....or even, as SPX and someone else pointed out, it may be a case where there are loopholes or maneuvers being utilized to get certain VP games to gobble our money and return very little. SOMETHING is clearly amiss......even if Billyjoe's erstwhile theory that Video Poker games are all legit, its just the technology that has changed and resulted in us losing more, begs the question: "Well why does THAT happen, and why is THAT ok? If we used to win more, and now we are not, simply put, these so called "LEGAL AND LEGIT" changes have by their very nature CHANGED the end results we players are experiencing." Anyone else see the puzzlement???There seems to be agreement amongst most players here that things have changed since 2009 and it is now HARDER to break even or make a profit, and it is much easier to lose your arse. playing video poker.....some of us have seen it manifested in fewer hand pays, some of us are hitting fewer royals, while others are hitting royals same as always but fewer quads, etc. Something is working more prolificly in the casinos' favor regarding Video Poker. A key point of difference amongst all of us is whether or not we believe that this current, more difficult era of Video Poker is sanctioned by, and in compliance with the regulations of the various gaming regions (i.e. its LEGAL or legit) or whether the "difficulty" is more nebulous and possibly even nefarious (i.e. some casinos, for whatever reason, are squeezing more money out of the rocks in their Video poker machine inventory)The more I look back at my results from 1996 thru 2004/2005 and compare it to 2009 thru today, the more STARK and obvious the difference becomes......I cannot ignore or explain that away anymore. Someone needs to explain how the new, super fast, "Random Randomness" RNG shufflemeisters are clobbering us and it is all "LEGAL and LEGIT"
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notes1
- Video Poker Master
- Posts: 3143
- Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:18 am
DB, whe i first started this topic, i was hoping to get feedback from other players on whether their vp experience had changed over the last 5 years. I have really enjoyed all the comments and agree we are not likely to all come to the same conclusion. The best part has been how civil the discussion has been. spxChrome, really good points, most of which i had never thought of. I appreciate you addressing the question that i first brought up, are vp players experiecing different results over the past 5 years or so? You appear to be confirming that the machines are paying out less, thus increasing the cost of a casino trip, compared to years past. Some others are also confirming this. But, still others feel the casinos are still on the up and up, yet i have not heard whether those same folks are experiencing the same results pre 2008. billjoe, i appreciate all the information. regarding john robison, i have been reading his posts for years on casino city times. He may well be a gambling expert, but it tooks years of people writing him about reduced slot payouts, that he finally admitted that payouts have indeed been reduced. He argued for years that casinos would not reduce slot payouts because they would be not be competitive with other casinos. He always seemed to take the side of the casinos. But, i am not intersted in slots, i am only concerned about vp. Judging by the number of posts you have made, i am assuming you have bee playing vp for years. My original question still stands, have you experienced any change in your personal vp payouts in the last 5 years? All things being equal are you winning/losing the same, more or less?
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OTABILL
- Video Poker Master
- Posts: 2852
- Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2009 5:22 pm
To my wife and I, VP machines are tighter the last few years. During this time frame, the bank of DDB progressives we normally play has had the same paytable though it was converted from DDB only machines to multi-game a number of years ago. The progressive meter also seems to be slower even when almost all machines are being played at max coin for DDB.
