how do you play...

[notes1]

As for the 99% games available at Cherokee, I believe I heard that it is a $5 minimum denomination, and I can confirm
on VPFree to be the case.Yep! I neglected to check the denomination column, assuming it would be quarter. Wow, pretty ludicrous! I certainly would not touch my good old JOB there. I'd stick to the quarter BP, and their 9/5 DDB if I knew the strategy inside out.


  always a good idea to check one's facts, especially when correcting someone else.

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=FAA]Of course with the old Phil strategy we can tamp down the losing and hopefully it won't exceed $25![/quote]The Cheap Strategy was developed to combat the diminishing odds that are common in today's video poker world.  Back in the day 99% games were common at the quarter level.  I distinctly remember limiting myself to quarter 9/6 jacks when I started playing about 10 years ago.  These days you are lucky if you can find 9/6 jacks at anything less than $2 a point.  On a 96% game or less you will lose so much money going for the royal that it doesn't make financial sense.   I only play deuces wild single line poker and I try not to play any game that pays less than 98%.   Sometimes I have no choice and that's when I go to the Cheap Strategy.  I think it's better to take a chance of a single coin royal than lose a ton of money to get back 2%.  Anything above 98% I play max coins. 

[DougJ]

[quote=FAA]Of course with the old Phil strategy we can tamp down the losing and hopefully it won't exceed $25!The Cheap Strategy was developed to combat the diminishing odds that are common in today's video poker world.  Back in the day 99% games were common at the quarter level.  I distinctly remember limiting myself to quarter 9/6 jacks when I started playing about 10 years ago.  These days you are lucky if you can find 9/6 jacks at anything less than $2 a point.  On a 96% game or less you will lose so much money going for the royal that it doesn't make financial sense.   I only play deuces wild single line poker and I try not to play any game that pays less than 98%.   Sometimes I have no choice and that's when I go to the Cheap Strategy.  I think it's better to take a chance of a single coin royal than lose a ton of money to get back 2%.  Anything above 98% I play max coins. 
[/QUOTE]

Well, you just have to use whatever strategy works for you, because it is YOUR MONEY! Apart from my spouse, I don't tell other people how to play. Nor how much to bet.
We have five casinos an hour away from home but NEVER play at them because the pay tables stink. Much better for us to make regular Vegas trips and save our money for those better pay tables! Then, I feel like max bet is the only way to play. Like you said, if pay tables are 98% then go for max coin.

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=DougJ]Well, you just have to use whatever strategy works for you,
because it is YOUR MONEY[/quote]Totally agree.  There are no bad
strategies if you win.  Some people win on machines with terrible odds and others lose
on 100% machines. That's why it's called gambling. 

[alpax]

 
i have come to understand the value of better paytables, but let's keep in mind that a higher paytable does not guarantee better results. the payout percentage for any machine is based on some infinite time frame. many machines i have played on have been used for 10 years or more. the amount of time that any one of us sits at that machine is minimal compared to it's overall use. i would guess that machines have been taken out of service before they ever hit their expected payout percentage. 

I would say the result of a higher payout percentage will keep you in the game longer with your budget, but not give you bigger wins. Most of the paytables are based on Flush and Full House payouts, those happen much more frequently than the premium quads people seek. Not sure if there is an accounting feature on the Game King machines to show to coin-in and coin-out on a game by game basis, if not, the Keno players will drive down the overall payout closer to slot machine levels.


Well said Alpax.

The questions is, how many people actually practice at home on the pay table they will be playing at the casino?

IMO ,If your always going to the same casino to play the same pay table , that's what you should be practicing at home.
You shouldn't practice on a 9/6 DDB pay table if your mostly playing 7/5, those little strategy adjustments can make a difference over time.


That is a very good point. It all depends on the seriousness levels of the player, whether they seek out to play the best paying games and then practicing the right game/paytable. These efforts are worth so much in terms of cost.

Surprisingly, learning the full pay 9/6 (or even 10/6) DDB strategy is much easier than its short pay variants (9/5, 8/5, 7/5, 6/5).

Same with Phil, my experience with DDB has not been too pleasant. I play it time to time at a secondary local casino these days. I will not play DDB if it is anything less than 9/6, those options are not simply any good for long term play.

1000 hands carries around 34.5% chance of winning at the end of the session. I learned this
from a casinocitytimes article.Always good to revisit this article. I don't feel quite as bad knowing that 65% of us will be losers after two hours on basic JOB. Of course with the old Phil strategy we can tamp down the losing and hopefully it won't exceed $25! Bet with your head not over it.


With JoB, even if you lose on the session, most of the time you walk away with a good amount of bankroll in tact. I've ruined about two times out of the last 30 visits.

[quote=DougJ]Well, you just have to use whatever strategy works for you,
because it is YOUR MONEYTotally agree.  There are no bad
strategies if you win.  Some people win on machines with terrible odds and others lose
on 100% machines. That's why it's called gambling.  [/QUOTE]

It becomes extremely improbable to be a long term winner or even break even on tables lower than 98.5%. Luck comes in spurts, short pay players will boast about their premium quads, but will be MIA while they lose a lot in between. Its a bad strategy to play games with low payouts on a long term basis, luck does not factor in that much.

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=alpax]It becomes extremely improbable to be a long term winner or even break even on tables lower than 98.5%.[/quote]This is true because you lose so much money in between wins that it's difficult to hit enough jackpots to break even much less win long term.  The only way I have been able to pull this off is to get lucky  with sizable max coin pot shots.   One thing I am certain of is that playing a negative expectation video poker game without varying your bet will give you negative results.  The only way you can beat a negative expectation video poker game is by consistently hitting jackpots at a higher denomination than the majority of your play.   Shoving money into a video poker game hoping for an edge does not work for me.

[alpax]

I forgot to add an important detail at the beginning.

"In the long run, one playing a 100% machine with skill will be more preferable than a person who gets more lucky than often on a poorer paytable". I did use Video Poker for Winners bankroll simulations, virtually majority of 98.5% games were losers after a million hands.

[QUOTE]The only way you can beat a negative expectation video poker game is by consistently hitting jackpots at a higher denomination than the majority of your play. [/QUOTE]

I agree with this, a big hit after switching to higher denominations will stretch the player's bankroll for much longer.

[FAA]

Anything above 98% I play max coins. Well, I definitely short change that philosophy! I'm always on 99.5s. When on dollar machines, I always play min coin, accepting that I get screwed on the improbable royal. On quarter machines, I only max play about 50% of the time. It adds another layer of gambling. Hoping that max play comes on a timely spin!

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=FAA]It adds another layer of gambling. Hoping that max play comes on a timely spin![/quote]I'm glad you brought this up. There is a problem with making global statements when it comes to video poker because everyone has a different reason for playing the way they do.  When I first developed the Cheap Strategy my goal was to extend my playing time on a bare minimum budget while retaining the possibility of a max coin jackpot.  As my bankroll grew, I realized I could use the same strategy to play larger denominations without an equal increase in risk.  Over the past two years, my bankroll has grown significantly because I limited my losses and was lucky enough to hit a good number of high denomination max coin jackpots.  At this time my bankroll is large enough to support playing max coins all the time.  By utilizing the progressive betting tactics learned from the Cheap Strategy with max coins my good luck continues and I have been able to extend my long term winning streak.  I am hopeful this will continue, but am not relying on this possibility.Professional video poker players only play when they believe they have an edge and are gambling that it will work for them over the long run. As you would expect this doesn't always work out.  Recreational players want to win too, but they have other factors that influence their playing decisions.  You can't say there is only one way to win because this game has so may uncontrollable elements.   You can learn a lot from professionals, but you don't necessarily need to mimic their methods exactly to get the most enjoyment out of the game. 

[pokerpokerpoker]

Here is how I like to play: I like to go about once a month for one or two hours. I like to have $400 - $800. To me that isn't pocket change. When I go bust it is enough to be mad, when I double or triple up it is enough to be elated. Gambling for somewhat high stakes makes it exciting. Seldom does a trip end around even. Usually bust, sometimes boom. I play fast, around 1000 hands per hour and I usually don't change machines. I only play DDB and know it well. Anymore, most of my play is regular single hand Game King.

There are 2 casinos nearby with good games. Casino #1 offers a $1 9/5 DDB with the "5 progressives" and a quarter 9/5 progressive. Meters on the $1 move pretty quickly, quarters not fast at all. There slot benefits are decent and the food is good. They still have the old style machines - which I much prefer.

Casino #2 offers 9/6 DDB plus (around 99.5%). The place is kinda dirty and the food stinks. The slot benefits for the good paytable machines are very poor. Therefore, I don't use a players card. They have quarters, halves and dollars. I usually mix 50/50 halves and dollars. This casino uses the new style machines - which I hate. Despite offering better odds, my results here stink. Today in 90 minutes I lost $800. I hit one quad on halves and one on dollars. The dollar one was dealt. Dealt quads SEEM common on the new style machines. Hitting a quad the "usual" way seems far less common. Time will tell, but generally I believe the games are legit.

The day I can't find 98% or higher games is the day I quit playing. At years end if I had a couple good days to offset some of the bad days and got some "free" crab leg buffets and had some fun while loosing a few grand, I can call it square.