Slinging Burgers vs Professional VP Playing

[misterlister]

There is no such thing as a video poker pro. Dollars to donuts every one of these people who make that claim have an income of some kind to compensate for their inevitable losses.

[BobDancer]

There is no such thing as a video poker pro. Dollars to donuts every one of these people who make that claim have an income of some kind to compensate for their inevitable losses. You would lose your bet. There are a number of video poker pros who are successful. Many people (pros and otherwise) have some sort of income --- be it Medicare, pension, salary, alimony, whatever or some sort of accumulated wealth they are letting decrease over time.. In my personal case I have several income streams --- including royalties, writing fees, teaching, hosting a radio show --- which are each quite small --- but they add up. These monies do reduce the variance of gambling swings and add to the bottom line. The fact that I have this extra income does not alter the fact that gambling is net positive for me.By far, however, my major source of income is from gambling where the average over the past 20+ years has been in excess of $100K a year --- BEFORE counting the extra income. BEFORE counting the food, rooms, cruises, and whatever other goodies the casinos give out. It is NOT done on the games that Grochowski talks about in his article. It is NOT done on the money management scheme that either FP or BJ (is he still around?) recommend. It is NOT done on the types of games that show up in jackpot pictures on this site.In my case it's mostly done in Vegas, but I take trips out of town to play as well. You absolutely do not have to live in Vegas in order to be a winning gambler --- but one of the things you must avoid is playing when the house has the edge. If you can't afford or find such games, don't play --- if you expect to win. If you want to treat it as a hobby that you pay for --- fine. Lots of people do that. But don't think that because it's a hobby for you that it can't be a profession for others. If you don't have the discipline to avoid playing when the house has the edge, I can see why you conclude that everybody must be a loser at this game. But there are those with more knowledge and more discipline than you have. Just because you don't know where these opportunities are doesn't mean they don't exist.

[notes1]

By far, however, my major source of income is from gambling where the average over the past 20+ years has been in excess of $100K a year --- BEFORE counting the extra income. BEFORE counting the food, rooms, cruises, and whatever other goodies the casinos give out. 
 just one question, what have been the VP results been for  the last 5 years, on play only? you already stated that in 2014 you lost money, on play only.

[royal flush]

most of his income comes from selling the "flash cards" which helped him but excelerated the decline in positive vp plays good for him, bad for vp in general ( thats Life) we must adapt and change and stop thinking about the good old days

[Carcounter]

I believe Bob makes money on VP. He is smart, but more importantly, extremely disciplined and if the math doesn't make sense, won't play. However, there are plenty of knowledgeable recreational players that get a good deal out of VP. I for one won't play less than a 99.5% game. 9/6 jacks. My main casino has 9/5 SDB a 99.69% base game. I practice and make very few, inexpensive mistakes. With cashback and comp dollars, it works out to just about 100%. Good enough for me as it is recreation, but I don't want it to cost me much. Many of us have probably daydreamed of moving to Nevada and doing this full time, but I can't see giving up a good engineering business to chase plays for the rest of my life, always knowing that they can be gone tomorrow. Having said that, I do have respect for VP pros. Their main job is much harder than mine and I have seen some local pros in my area age very quickly. They don't seem to be having much fun.

[misterlister]

You would lose your bet. There are a number of video poker pros who are successful. Many people (pros and otherwise) have some sort of income --- be it Medicare, pension, salary, alimony, whatever or some sort of accumulated wealth they are letting decrease over time.. In my personal case I have several income streams --- including royalties, writing fees, teaching, hosting a radio show --- which are each quite small --- but they add up. These monies do reduce the variance of gambling swings and add to the bottom line. The fact that I have this extra income does not alter the fact that gambling is net positive for me.By far, however, my major source of income is from gambling where the average over the past 20+ years has been in excess of $100K a year --- BEFORE counting the extra income. BEFORE counting the food, rooms, cruises, and whatever other goodies the casinos give out. It is NOT done on the games that Grochowski talks about in his article. It is NOT done on the money management scheme that either FP or BJ (is he still around?) recommend. It is NOT done on the types of games that show up in jackpot pictures on this site.In my case it's mostly done in Vegas, but I take trips out of town to play as well. You absolutely do not have to live in Vegas in order to be a winning gambler --- but one of the things you must avoid is playing when the house has the edge. If you can't afford or find such games, don't play --- if you expect to win. If you want to treat it as a hobby that you pay for --- fine. Lots of people do that. But don't think that because it's a hobby for you that it can't be a profession for others. If you don't have the discipline to avoid playing when the house has the edge, I can see why you conclude that everybody must be a loser at this game. But there are those with more knowledge and more discipline than you have. Just because you don't know where these opportunities are doesn't mean they don't exist.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for the detailed explanation. The reason I wouldn't either bet on this or agree with you is because anyone can come on and claim just about anything on the internet, and without a burden of proof. Just as I gave an opinion, I believe you did the same whether it being about yourself or anyone else.

I'm not someone who only plays when I have an edge because it's not that important to me. I happen to be a significant amount ahead in lifetime gambling but only because of a large lotto win some years back. But I also don't believe anyone consistently wins year after year at vp.

You said you play mostly in Vegas and you've many years of winning 6 figures under your belt. You're also a known name to casinos. You saying they let you do this to them, in addition to all those cruises etc that you are given just for playing? It doesn't add up to me is all I'm saying. I know I've had some runs of good luck at the Palms and a place in Laughlin. Palms has stopped comping me and I no longer am allowed to receive points for my play. It stinks, just because of a run of good fortune so I've been forced not to play there any more. The Laughlin story isn't as tough but I'm still in some hot water for winning. Funny part is that if they knew how much I've lost at other casinos then they wouldn't call me a winner.

[alpax]

[QUOTE=BobDancer]
By far, however, my major source of income is from gambling where the average over the past 20+ years has been in excess of $100K a year --- BEFORE counting the extra income. BEFORE counting the food, rooms, cruises, and whatever other goodies the casinos give out. 
 just one question, what have been the VP results been for  the last 5 years, on play only? you already stated that in 2014 you lost money, on play only.[/QUOTE]

The average may look somewhat ambiguous, when starting out as an advantage blackjack player to build up the bankroll to transition into video poker while increasing denominations as the bankroll kept growing.

I do not see it as $100k year in and year out from 1996 to now. It is probably looking to be more like an exponential curve. It is impressive regardless. If the fortunate million dollar earnings during the six months in 2001 were excluded, the 20 year average might be brought down some.

You do get 20-30% chance to be ahead after 3 million hands (which I think is 5 years for most players) on a high theoretical negative expectation game if played every hand optimally without the assistance of any slot club or casino benefits. It is either Mr. Dancer is lucky to fall into that small percentage window, or casino club card cash back, bounce back mailer cash, and winning drawings were "included".

most of his income comes from selling the "flash cards" which helped him but excelerated the decline in positive vp plays good for him, bad for vp in general ( thats Life) we must adapt and change and stop thinking about the good old days

Even if Daily/Dancer did not offer those Flash Cards, Shackleford (the Wizard of Odds) would eventually offer such playing strategy at no cost (except for seeing a few ads),

[notes1]

my 'average' age over the past 20 years is much different than how old i am now. if one were to earn $1m in one year and earn $0 the other 9 years, they could accurately state they average $100k/year. he opened the discussion about income not me, i am asking a very simple question, how much did he earn from playing VP, over the past 5 years. he also offered that in 2014, he lost money, from VP play alone.  we are all aware the VP has changed over the last few years. he asserts that there are folks making money playing as pros. i would simply like to know current results, as opposed to integrating results from past years, when 100+ machines were easier to find.  i can only assume he would offer honest answers.

[Carcounter]

Quick story about a smart local pro from AC I met years ago. He may be a member of this board, I don't know. I do know he and his wife made money every year back in the 90's and early 2000's, but things have certainly changed since then. Borgata was offering a 5X slot dollar day so I went down early, got a seat at a $1.00 JOB and started playing. He sits down next to me and asks if I know the current base cashback %. I said I don't know for sure, but think it is about.125% and .25 comp dollars. He says we'll find out. Puts his card in the machine, plays a certain amount of hands, pulls the card and asks me to hold his seat while he goes to the desk to see how much cashback he has earned on those hands. Comes back 10 min later and says, you're right base is .125%, so today is .625%. He then says good luck and says he has a better play somewhere else and leaves. Thought of following him for a second, but as a recreational player did not want to move in on one of his better plays.

[BobDancer]

 
  just one question . . .

Ha! That'll be the day!Notes1 has shown a strong anti-Bob-Dancer bias over several posts over several threads. I'm not interested in participating in discussions where he/she chimes in.If you guys wish to learn, I have things to teach you. If you wish to make personal slams against me, I have better things to doBob