Difference between a pro and recreational gambler

[misterlister]

[QUOTE=misterlister] Most of us here have the same level of understanding about video poker as you do. You act like it takes some kind of god to figure it out, to understand how and when to play with an edge, how to use abuse and manipulate the slot clubs, and why you don't play without that theoretical thing on your mind. There's nothing hard about it, nothing.
All that being the case, why did you bother to join what you thought was a serious forum to "learn a little more", when there appears to be nothing more to learn?[/QUOTE]

While I don't agree with everything he says, I've learned more from Florida Phil in my time here than I have from Dancer. At least he comes across as honest and not condescending.

I'm wondering which makes more sense:

1. I play the Cheap strategy and the rest is confusing? or,
2. I'm a loser, but I'm a winner?

[notes1]

There is no universal definition of winning. Personally I include cash and free play as wins --- whether the cash comes from a machine, tournament, drawing, some other contest, or mailer.  The average Seven Stars member at Caesars Entertainment probably loses $150,000 or more a year. (I made that number up. I have no hard statistics to back it up. But I believe it to be true.) I call a pro someone who regularly comes out ahead at the end of the year from gambling activities. If you can do that, you're a pro. If you can't, you're not..
 cash and free play are counted as wins?! my definition is much simpler, i walk in with with an amount of my money, i walk out with an amount of money. the difference is a win or loss. you are a pro if one comes out ahead from gambling activities, kind of a broad defintion. so, i could repair VP machines during the day, play VP at night, and as long as i am net postive income,  year in and year out, i am a pro. or, i could be a pro if i play and lose, but i make enough money from 'gambling activities'. what are gambling activities, writing gambling books, selling gambling stuff, appearance fees at gambling locations, etc. the most interesting insight and i know he stated it was a guess, was the average loss per 7* member. now, that is something i would like to know! and, i would guess he has some accurate info to make that estimate.

[onemoretry]

cash and free play are counted as wins?!
I don't know why that would surprise you. If your play generates redeemable cashback which you can collect and put in your pocket, why wouldn't you include the amount in your win/loss determination?

[wildman49]

  my definition is much simpler, i walk in with with an amount of my money, i walk out with an amount of money. the difference is a win or loss. AGREE

[notes1]

[QUOTE=notes1]
cash and free play are counted as wins?!
I don't know why that would surprise you. If your play generates redeemable cashback which you can collect and put in your pocket, why wouldn't you include the amount in your win/loss determination?[/QUOTE]
 the term 'free play', indicates one must play to cash it out. a $100 free play coupon could easily turn into $10-20-50 of cash. the only value is for play. it's not that free play has no value, i count it as part of my bankroll, when i play and i play when my free play is the highest amount. but, wins are those dollars that i can pay a utility bill with. another note, many casinos these days are awarding free play in place of cash for drawings. no tax paperwork. but, do not think the casinos are not well aware that a $25k cash payout for a drawing is much different than giving someone $25k in free play.   

[Vman96]

the most interesting insight and i know he stated it was a guess, was the average loss per 7* member. now, that is something i would like to know! and, i would guess he has some accurate info to make that estimate.

With the way CET is set up now to make 7 Stars, if you lose $150k to just barely make 7 Stars, then you're doing it wrong.

But over all of the 7 Stars (including those that gamble many times more than the minimum requirement), then yeah, maybe $150k on average, but I would guess less overall. Under the "old" rules, I think $150k would be closer. Somewhere near $100k would be my guess for the average now thanks to the tier bonuses.

The cheapest way to get 7 Stars that I knew of until recently was 10 to 20 sessions of dollar Ultimate 4 of a kind bonus at Horseshoe Hammond. Full points on a 99.96% dollar machine. A minimum of $500k coin-in was needed if you did the tier bonuses right. So that's an expected loss of $200, and that's before the $500 worth of Reward Credits you'd earn from playing that much. But unfortunately that game got downgraded this spring. A high variance game for sure though.

[notes1]

vman, i think there is a difference between one who is trying to achieve 7* in the least expensive manner, in which case i agree with you, and those who just play/lose so much, that they hit that level. i think dancer is guess-estimating the overall group, where most would not be astute as you. they just play so much that they hit 7*, many by playing slots.   i understand the premise that some believe that gambling is their main entertainment choice and there are benefits such as free food and hotel stays, along with some airfare features that can mitigate the overall losses. but, i am in the financial business, deal with many folks who earn well above average incomes and i can tell all, there are only so many in this country who can really afford to spend $150k/year just on entertainment. don't know if i am repeating myself about the story of going into the diamond lounge at a CET casino. the lady directly in front of me was fumbling thru this gigantic purse, looking for her ID, to show at check in. i am only a foot away and watching as she digs thru her stuff. she finally finds all her identification cards, including her EBT card. a diamond member and an EBT just don't mix. 

[OTABILL]

[QUOTE=notes1]  my definition is much simpler, i walk in with with an amount of my money, i walk out with an amount of money. the difference is a win or loss. AGREE[/QUOTE]

As far as I am concerned if we come out of a casino ahead monetarily or spent less money than we would have on an alternative recreational/entertainment activity I am pleased with the result.

[FloridaPhil]

If winning is playing all year and coming out ahead at the end, how much ahead is enough to be considered a pro?  The main reason I am ahead these days is because I play most of my hands so cheap it would make most players on this forum crazy.  Because of how the Cheap Strategy works, once in a great while the stars line up and something wonderful happens like a $1,000 quad deuce or a max coin dealt royal. Everyone here knows these things happen.  The difference is I normally play so cheap it's a huge windfall for me and I go back to playing quarters.  I don't believe there is anything smart or advantageous about consistently playing negative video poker  games with a big bankroll.  I play video poker strictly for entertainment and I don't expect to play for free.  If I never won anything I would lose interest and go back to fishing, but as a consequence of playing Cheap Strategy and limiting my loses, I'm a winner.  It really doesn't take much thinking to realize how this works.   If your loses are held to a few dollars an hour and you get lucky and win $1,000, you can play for a very long time.  Even if I never got lucky the anticipation that I could keeps me interested. It's all the same game...  

[FAA]

losing is a progressive disease. Over time, you may well get so used to
minus $20 an hour that you creep up to minus $30 or minus xxx. You
may recognize a dollar progressive is at a really high number and sit
down to play. A half hour and $300 later somebody else hits it. You may
decide playing at that level sometimes is pretty exciting. And if you
do, there goes your absolute ceiling.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Losing is certainly a progressive disease, which is a terrifying idea. I bring $100 max into a casino; avoid ATMs due to their fees. Worst case -$100 plus whatever I won from $25 free play. I'm strictly a quarter player after horrific dollar machine results, which were only to be expected. My primary casino's full pay JOB machines are now a woebegone island, with half the machines in such disrepair and neglect that they deselect card holds! I will henceforth deselect the casino entirely. Off to the secondary casino I go. Actually better; full pays are up against a wall for better concentration.