need clarification

[notes1]

flew down to tampa to play for 2 days. witnessed something i think was wrong, but do not know for sure. one point to make, tampa has many VP machines that have buttons that work very poorly. so bad, that i would only press the screen on many machines, to hold a card. late one night, the guy who was playing a couple machines from me, yelled out that 'the machine stole my 4, and it cost me a four of a kind'. he told me that he was pretty sure that he had saved two 4's from the deal and drew two additional 4's, but there were only three on his screen. he called a tech, who then called a 'suit'. they opened the machine and replayed the hand and on the deal, he had saved only one of the two 4's (#2 and #5 position) dealt, and no other cards. it was obvious he intended to save the other 4. the bottom of the screen showed the draw, where he got the other two 4's (#1 and #2 position). i left feeling the guy would be accomodated. about twenty minutes later, i ran into the the 'suit' and asked him the final result. he said he did not give the player any credit, beyond the 3 of a kind the machine had payed him. i asked why, his words, the player would not have gotten the two additional 4's, because one of the 4's, on the draw was 'behind' one of the 4's, on the deal. he also stated that it is the players responsibilty to make sure the proper cards are saved, there is no time limit. i told him that i did not think there were any cards 'behind' any cards. he smuggly told me he had been trained and i was just repeating something i had read. he was not happy with me questioning his answer. i did not want to end up being thrown out of the hotel, so i ended the debate. later that night, i walked by another machine and the same 'suit' was showing another suit an example of the hand played, he saw me and both walked away. if i am wrong about any card being 'behind' any other card, i would like to be corrected. anyone who is absolutely confident about the right answer, i would appreciate it. if i am wrong, i want to know.  

[Vman96]

They are wrong. Casino employees like to be wrong a lot with VP sadly. Machines ever since Class III gaming has been legal in Florida have been designed to determine the draw cards when the draw button is hit for game safety reasons. You have a big advantage if you knew your expected draw cards.

That being said, I'm still okay with them not awarding a quad because it's easier to pull the last 2 fours from the deck when drawing 4 cards than it is when drawing 3 cards. Their fallacy would help award the quads draw with the correct probability though if they would have paid him if both fours appeared in positions 1, 3, or 4.

As a token of good faith, I probably pay this out once to someone regardless if it looks like they attempted to hold the card on video.

[FloridaPhil]

I play at the Tampa Hard Rock at least 3-4 times a month.  The buttons on their machines are always in bad repair.  I've brought this issue up with the floor techs and at least two managers and it never seems to get any better. The Tampa Hard Rock is a huge gold mine for the tribes as it's the only casino in Central or North Florida.   The casino is directly on I-4 within an hour of the Orlando Theme Parks so you can image the traffic.  There is no incentive to fix the buttons as a tourist will fill your seat as soon as you leave.  Currently it's the only choice we have, so we put up with it or drive 200 miles to Miami. I don't think they should have payed this player either.   If they started a policy of paying out every player that thinks the machines are unfair, no one would ever be able to play.  I also agree the casino employees don't have a clue how the machines work, they only know what they have been told.  All that said, the casino does a good job of providing entertainment.  I only wish they would get those damn buttons fixed. 

[notes1]

vman, thanks for the clarification. i am not the first one to state that the overwhelming majority of suits in a casino, have no real clue how the games operate. this 'twentysome' guy, was particularily smug. i was told that if someone authorizes a payment to a player, as an exception, it could cost them their job.  what i don't think the casino understands is how these malfunctioning machines costs them revenue. instead of me playing at my normal speed, i played much slower, to assure the proper cards were saved. slower play, less money for them. 

[notes1]

these casinos are a gold mine to the state tax coffers. do not remember that actual number, but i believe the state gets hundreds of millions each year.

[Chicagoan]

The video in a casino is so good, I have been told the eye in the sky can actually read the serial numbers on a dollar bill being inserted into a machine. So...... it is impossible that the casino could not study the video and see if the player did hit the hold button or not. But...... I don't play at casinos where the machines are overwhelmingly in disrepair --- it's too easy to make mistakes that can cost $$$$. It is aggravating to have to hit the draw button on the screen because the other button does not work. Disrepaired machines actually get worse and worse because players have to pound on them so much.

As for the casino being a gold mine for the state, if it is Indian owned then it is probably tax exempt.

[FAA]

Once you realize a malfunction, just shut it down. You'll thank yourself later for sparing yourself the aggravation. Surely one must be in good shape and available. 

[olds442jetaway]

Here is one that happened to me. Funny, it also involved the 4's. I was dealt 3 4's. I held all 3 of course. I looked to see that all were held and they were. As I hit the draw button, one of the 4's went unheld due to a sticky and screwed up button. Naturally, the 4th 4 appeared and I only got paid for 3. I was tempted to halt everything and wait for a suit to review the tape or whatever, but this machine had been on a hot streak for nearly 5 minutes and I didn't want to break it. As it turns out, a couple of hands later, I was dealt a straight flush on the job game and shortly after that, the machine cooled down. It still teed me off no end. I don't play that machine anymore. They have never fixed it and say there is nothing wrong with the buttons. To test that, I played it one more time a month later. The same thing happened, on the same button, but the card that went unheld was no big deal and I actually ended up with a flush after one of the unsuited high cards went unheld. I complained again, but haven't had a chance to test it out again.

[FloridaPhil]

 [quote=Chicagoan]As for the casino being a gold mine for the state, if it is Indian owned then it is probably tax exempt.[/quote]The State of Florida recently cut a deal with the tribes which guaranteed them exclusive rights to table games and added craps and roulette.  In return the tribes guaranteed a multi million dollar tax minimum.  I have no problem with this deal as I believe the tribes are doing a good job of expanding the facilities and aside from the consistently broken deal buttons most players seem to be happy.   That said, I think most casino operators would be happier if video poker wasn't offered.  I'm sure it produces the lowest profit of any casino game and I think there is a perception among casino managers that some players can beat the game (wonder where they ever got that idea?).   Even though the video poker odds aren't anywhere near Vegas, they are much better than Mississippi.  I read a recent article on the web that said Mississippi gambling revenue is way down.  Mississippi needs to wake up and fix this problem or go back to mullet fishing. We'll never go back there until they at least match Florida's VP odds.

[alpax]

Mississippi needs to wake up and fix this problem or go back to mullet fishing. We'll never go back there until they at least match Florida's VP odds.


I believe on Mr. Dawes trip reports to the newly opened Scarlet Pearl near the Biloxi area, the VP odds on that casino match up to that of Florida.

As for the topic of the post, I agree for the players that enjoy playing swiftly, broken buttons should not be a hindrance. In Vegas casinos, even though many people play on the video poker machines everyday, the buttons seem to be in good shape.