Is Video Poker a Game of Skill or Luck

[FAA]

Well, we all enjoy VP in so many different versions and costs. It's a vast menu, so common ground is a rarity. I'm a semi CSer, fwiw. It's worked out well for me. 

[FloridaPhil]

Contrary to what some people on this forum think, I'm a semi CSer myself.  I never said anyone should play that way all the time, only when the odds are seriously against you and you want to play anyway.  Not playing is no strategy as far as I'm concerned.

[DaBurglar]

  Yes you understand the math. Are there any 2x or higher point opportunities? Are there any drawings? Are there any other promotions with financial ramifications? Assuming vanilla conditions 100% of the time is hardly realistic.Even spending comp dollars on over-priced stuff gives you things you can sell on eBay. It's "free" comp dollars, so it's not like you're spending real money.Insofar as a "guarantee" goes, that's not part of gambling. If you insist on a guarantee, you're playing the wrong game.  Your point about not liking the game is relevant. I highly recommend gambling only if you enjoy yourself --- in addition to playing a positive game. If you don't enjoy yourself, why put yourself through misery? Everything was fine until that last part......I distinctly recall you admonishing people about how Winning is in itself "the fun"......and yet here this is dismissing that point of view in that your methodology of Advantage play is supposed to be (among other things) designed to maximize winning (i.e. "FUN").     I think Video Poker discussion has become one huge chinese fire drill, whereby the hypocrisy normally limited to Tedlark's absurd posts has spread everywhere, even infecting Mr B. Dancer.And before anyone clobbers me again, I would be a hypocrite if I said i was not also becoming somewhat hypocritical myself simply by remaining an active member of this forum.I only play(ed) video poker to win, when i was focused on it as my primary casino activity.    Even when I dabble now with what free play i get sent and with a few minutes to kill in between poker action or waiting for a bus or what not, i still try my best to win, because it is true, the FUN is in the winning.    Pressing buttons and making a correct play, only to lose is NOT fun and yet that makes up the majority of Video Poker "action".....Edited to add:  I have not had the chance to apply "chinese fire drill" in a analogical mode in a long time, that was FUN.

[olds442jetaway]

I can see where some can still say that CS is silly to play, but if you are playing for fun only and have a very limited budget, the CS game can add some excitement. That said, at Mohegan Sun in CT., I can play CS starting with 5 quarters on a 99.54 job game, follow the CS rules for increasing my bet on hits of 4 or more, and still be playing a 99.54 game with a chance of a larger win. Notice I said chance and one has to realize, that upping your bet, does not mean you have a better chance of winning and beating the posted 99.54 return. It just adds an additional degree of excitement for some players who can afford the long term cost. In addition to the 99.54 long term returns, free play there is in the .5% range at least for me, so long term play without mistakes should be a completely no cost break even way to play for me. Unfortunately, for some like myself, long term can be a very long time. Hope this year is the year it comes around and works out that way. I have pretty much ended play on the poorer paytable games with the exception of 98.91 Deuces Wild which if starting with 5 coins, still gives one factoring in comps, a very small long term loss in theory as long as the comps are factored in.

[notes1]

[QUOTE=notes1] if i understand the math correctly, this would mean that if someone would put $2m through the machine, everything worked out as expected, one would win $6k, including bounceback, which has no guarantee of having any value. if they were under royaled, they are a big loser.Yes you understand the math. Are there any 2x or higher point opportunities? Are there any drawings? Are there any other promotions with financial ramifications? Assuming vanilla conditions 100% of the time is hardly realistic.Even spending comp dollars on over-priced stuff gives you things you can sell on eBay. It's "free" comp dollars, so it's not like you're spending real money.Insofar as a "guarantee" goes, that's not part of gambling. If you insist on a guarantee, you're playing the wrong game.  Your point about not liking the game is relevant. I highly recommend gambling only if you enjoy yourself --- in addition to playing a positive game. If you don't enjoy yourself, why put yourself through misery? [/QUOTE]
 in this particular case, your response has been cordial and effective. but, let's not ruin it by taking my words out of context. i never said i expected 'guarantees', but rather that the bounceback/free slot play, could not be guaranteed to result in actual cash. if generating a positive game requires one to sell their comps on ebay, it just confirms how difficult it has become to win at VP. i am not a follower of you other than what you post here, but i am a little surprised and find it refreshing that you endorse playing VP for fun. personally, i would find your advice more credible if you noted that you are an advocate for the gaming industry, that making money at VP in the modern era has gotten more difficult and enjoying the game, is the return most players will get. for most players, your advice can be more effective to help players reduce their losses than making money. if this is what you are already advising, kudos to you. that is the reality. 

[Tedlark]

notes - you enjoy tax exempt status here.

DaBurglar -I've been called absurd by better blow hard's than you but they are not nearly as bad at video poker as you are.

[DaBurglar]

notes - you enjoy tax exempt status here.

DaBurglar -I've been called absurd by better blow hard's than you but they are not nearly as bad at video poker as you are.You just copped to being called "Absurd" by at least two (2) people who you subsequently identify as being "blowhards" and who, while not being as unlucky at Video poker as you perceive myself to be, are still not nearly as LUCKY as you apparently.....You just validated my judgement of you by acknowledging that other people have arrived at the same exact conclusion as I have, and in fact (no, POINT OF FACT) you solidified this conclusion by stating these other "blowhards" are ABOVE (superior to) me in some non-specific way!    Talk about stepping into a pile of turds.....And If I am in fact (no "point" this time) a blowhard as you claim, then so are you.....I might even cop to it so long as the term sticks to you too.....FYI, you can "End" this perpetual torture and humiliation Ted by simply NOT pointlessly and malciously sabotaging and spoiling EVERY SINGLE POST  and EVERY SINGLE thread I make on this forum.    mm kay??

[alpax]

Well done notes1 on the math and expressing the perspective of the whole situation. I was hoping that FP could come up with a similar conclusion in defense of his style of play. If the extras/perks that Hard Rock provides to its players has no monetary value to them, it would not be such a big advantage play consider food at the casino is overpriced or if the items on the catalog are not sellable for at least 80% of its value on eBay. Mr. Dancer wrote in the past on LVAdvisor that he used comps to buy alcoholic drinks and sell them to people looking for value, and he got premium gifts for being in the high casino club tiers such as Seven Stars 7*.

In addition to what you've calculated, I think it is also vital for a player seeking an advantage to show up on days where there is cash drawings and slot tournaments, normally on less crowded weekdays. It may take some of your time waiting your turn to mash the spin button as many times possible, but one has to take into consideration how many people normally enter these contests as well as the overall prize pool. Not sure if you pay much attention if Hard Rock sends private invites or mailers to you for exclusive gift offers. The marketing department of a casino normally has high budget allocation since their job is to entice players to get them to make return visits. FP does not mention such worthy offers, if the HR does not do this, their marketing will be considered atrocious for one of the biggest casinos in the nation.

By doing the $2 million coin in calculation for a $6000 potential theoretical gain, hopefully it gave you the insight that playing as a professional gambler is not easier said than done. It takes a grind (that would be 400,000 hands, at a 600 hands per hour pace, that would be close to 700 hours of play when the average full time working adult works 2000 hours a year), is not really much fun, and will have to do it for even higher stakes ($1 is too steep for the common person and if that would make $6k, multiplying that to $5 stakes to make $30k which is livable to most states other than CA and NY).

My idea of a cheap strategy is playing Jacks or Better, as Vman mentioned, even if you go through the worst case scenario where you are royal less for a stretch, it has a high floor of a 98% return, which is better than the vast majority of the casino games with above average luck.

[notes1]

thanks, alpax. both sides of this arguement about whether winning over the long term is possible need to choose their words carefully. apparently, there are some limited opportunities to gain a positive advantage over the machines, but if selling a set of 'gift' glasses on the internet or selling booze out of the back of my car is what is required, no thanks. on the other hand, no one should state that it is impossible to gain an advantage, in some specific situations.  all of us sometimes do things for our job, that we may not care to do. if playing VP is how one chooses to earn a living, then playing games they may not enjoy, putting more money at risk than recreational players are willing to do and spending lots of time/effort to find that advantage opportunity, comes with the chosen job. for those who want to sell the idea that winning is possible, i would simply suggest they mention all that is involved. for those who believe it is impossible to win, i would suggest they mention they are not willing/interested in attacking the game as a job. i/m/o, the percentage of people who play VP and can make a living doing so, is about the same percentage odds of Ted and DB becoming best buddies.

[Tedlark]

No worries DaBurglar; you make 3 the number of people who have called me absurd in 53 years and I haven't liked any of them.