The facts

[DaBurglar]

Are you saying you once believed casinos were interested in players winning? I've never had that impression about casinos. They don't pay for those tall towers, fancy billboards and flashing lights with buffet tips. I play because it's fun, and sometimes I will win. I expect to lose most of the time. But I also don't whine about it, because I know what to expect. I think that is the case with most people who go to Vegas.If this is directed at me and the previous post, you lost me, but I will respond:    Sure, the BEST casinos are at least somewhat concerned with players winning (or at least achieving a good VALUE for their time and activity in the casino.)   Why would they NOT be?   This ensures the long term success of the casino by promoting customer satisfaction and happiness. and there actually is LOTS of evidence of casinos being "interested in players actually winning", at least in VEGAS casinos.Case(s) in point:  when you play table games such as Blackjack in most Vegas casinos (and also AC casinos), they will allow players to utilize the BASICSTRATEGY cards which tell the player exactly what to do for each given hand.   This is allowing the player to MAXIMIZE his chance to win, but obviously the casino STILL has the edge when a player uses PERFECT basic strategy (something that is also true for video poker, and of course we all know that you can use many things to help you while playing VP!)       Another point that undermines the concept that casinos are not interested in players winning is just the general treatment and attitude that casino employees like dealers and pit bosses often display towards players, at least in the better VEGAS venues.   I have found them to be HELPFUL and even "rooting for you", simply because they know the house has the edge no matter what.     And games like craps are the ultimate example of how helpful a casino can be to players.....if you've played then you know what I am talking about.Of course, if a player somehow, or suddenly goes on a massive winning streak, a luck run that does not quit or defies custom, this will all change, and as you stipulated earlier, the casino will indeed lose interest in the players success and start doing what it can to get the money back from the player, with the ultimate measure taken (if needed) being to BAN the player from playing anymore in house!     If any of you have ever seen a player or friend actually win a large amount of money on a game like Blackjack or craps, you know what I mean.

[DaBurglar]

DaBurglar I disagree with your comment regarding income disparity in Las Vegas, have you looked into the cost of bottle service at someof the higher end clubs there? Not even taking bottle service into account;how about just a night of regular drinking at one of these clubs? My guess would be bottle service would be in the $2,000.00- $3,000.00 range and just a regular night without bottle service would be between a range of $250.00 - $500.00.

Just what clubs are paying EDM d.j.'s is a HUGE nut, much less the other overhead costs.RESPECTFULLY, I have no understanding of what the relationship is between bottle service (which is offered at select Vegas clubs which tend to cater primarily to people with MONEY, "higher end" as you call it), booze and what I posted about (the national issue of income disparity.)My point has to do with the fact that in the USA, as the gap between wealthy and poor increases faster than economic growth and upward mobility, and as it continues to concentrate more and more into fewer hands, the TOTAL customer pool available to casinos of people willing (and ABLE) to gamble is shrinking, which threatens the survival of casinos.we all know that WEALTHY people generally are not the "bread and butter" of your average casino (especially in vegas.)   Sure, there are wealthy people who gamble (i.e. a "whale"), but they are not nearly as numerous or as important as the middle level player(s) who are far more numerous and  more likely to spend (or "Waste" lol) their time and money in a casino.    This is a fact long established.......MANY rich people would never deign to frequent, or be caught in, a typical american casino.    Logically, as wealth is concentrated into the hands of a few really wealthy people, while the vast majority of everyone else see's their disposable income shrink, this is bad for casinos......PLUS, we all know that casinos represent the ulitmate in DISCRETIONARY spending (meaning that no one NEEDS to visit or play at or spend time & money in a casino.....unlike other discretionary things like food, clothing, cars etc which actually serve real purposes and which are indeed NECESSARY!)       What this means is when the economy tanks into a recssion, or when people in general are hurting for money, businesses like CASINOS are the first to suffer grievously.

[Eduardo]

I was referring to the original post in this topic but yes I agree, it is in the casino's interest for players to win often (as long as they lose more). Individuals will come out ahead but they of course need the floor to generate revenue, which means more people losing than winning, or losing more often than winning. Anyone who goes to Vegas for a vacation and expects to win is fooling themselves (but they could get lucky). But that is a different story than people who play locally or frequently of course. The question is, can the casino make enough off tourists alone while ignoring the rest (which I suspect was the case in the early years but is less so now).

[DaBurglar]

I was referring to the original post in this topic but yes I agree, it is in the casino's interest for players to win often (as long as they lose more). Individuals will come out ahead but they of course need the floor to generate revenue, which means more people losing than winning, or losing more often than winning. Anyone who goes to Vegas for a vacation and expects to win is fooling themselves (but they could get lucky). But that is a different story than people who play locally or frequently of course. The question is, can the casino make enough off tourists alone while ignoring the rest (which I suspect was the case in the early years but is less so now).Good follow up point then......especially your last line above.   I am sure you are aware of the existence of "locals" casinos in Vegas......these are a niche market, or sub-genre, of casinos which cater specifically to those people who live locally rather than all the out of town or worldwide tourists that show up each week.    And, ironically, once a casino gets touted in Vegas as being a place that "locals call their own", pretty soon the out of towners and tourists all want to start playing at it too, because they perceive (sometimes correctly, sometimes not) that there must be some extra hidden value at these locals casinos in order to attract the people who live in Vegas every day year round (i.e. the more jaded, and knowledgeable players by virtue of their local nearby status.)

[Tedlark]

DaBurglar there are some additional incentives that some Las Vegas "locals" casinos make available to "locals" and not to out of towners. These incentives would be of no,or minimal, value to out of towners unless they are frequently in Las Vegas. And to me; frequently would be defined as 2-3 times a week.

[JT]

DaBurglar I disagree with your comment regarding income disparity in Las Vegas, have you looked into the cost of bottle service at someof the higher end clubs there? Not even taking bottle service into account;how about just a night of regular drinking at one of these clubs? My guess would be bottle service would be in the $2,000.00- $3,000.00 range and just a regular night without bottle service would be between a range of $250.00 - $500.00.

Just what clubs are paying EDM d.j.'s is a HUGE nut, much less the other overhead costs.

Bottle service is expensive because of simple math. You buy a single drink in the bar in a casino, it's usually about $15. Out of a liter bottle, they get about 22 shots of liquor, so each bottle usually brings $330 gross to the casino (slightly less due to cost of mixers, but let's just go with this). If they bring the whole bottle to you, in order to avoid going broke, they have to charge you at least the price of the drinks, and they usually mark it up a bit to cover costs.   So buying the whole bottle is usually in the $400-450 range, more if it's premium stuff (i.e. if you want Gray Goose instead of Smirnoff, and they usually don't offer rail booze at bottle service). Plus, they usually give you some mixers with bottle service, anyway -- so you get the big bowl of ice, some Coke, some Red Bull, what have you.   

Yes, it seems expensive to pay $400 for a bottle you can buy at the liquor store for $25, but you're paying for the cost of all the drinks that aren't being mixed with it at the bar.

[Carcounter]

There is virtually no chance any of the new casinos going up in places like Mass.will have good VP Tables. I think the taxes the state will take on their profits will be excessive and eliminate the possibility of good games. Nevada takes the least, I believe, hence good games off strip. DB, do you have info on the taxes Mass. will take?

[Tedlark]

JT I understand the math behind the bottle service. My point though was to give an example to DaBurglar that if younger people can pay for bottle service at one of those clubs or have a night out for drinks, then: there might not be as much an income disparity that he may think exists in Las Vegas.

[DaBurglar]

DaBurglar there are some additional incentives that some Las Vegas "locals" casinos make available to "locals" and not to out of towners. These incentives would be of no,or minimal, value to out of towners unless they are frequently in Las Vegas. And to me; frequently would be defined as 2-3 times a week.Ok.......what exactly are you saying or disagreeing with THIS time?    You do realize that Eduardo actually used the word "frequently" in his post, whereas I did not.   Besides, your OPINION that Frequently equals 2-3 times a week is just that.......whereas I might think Frequently (in the case of visiting a casino) is once a week, or more.   Others no doubt have even more variety in their opinion......What Incentives exactly would be exempt to out of towners at "Locals Casinos?"    I am sure there are some, but if you read my post above, I specified a "PERCEPTION" that exists among out of town gamblers and visitors that LOCALS casinos offer more "value" than other Vegas casinos (like your glitzy strip properties.)  Since this value is perceived it may not equal much in terms of concrete value, BUT it COULD.....locals casinos often offer better food and dining value than Strip or Mega casinos.    Either way, as we all know, PERCEPTION is REALITY especially in Marketing.Back in the late 1990s thru 2005 or so, when I lived in California and was the marketing director for the largest west coast Industrial Packaging and Consumer products Distributor, I was FREQUENTLY in Vegas for both my job and for weekend excursions with friends (aided by my job contacts at the time of course.)   During this time I recall that the ORLEANS was perhaps the most prominent and well known, and favorite, "LOCALS CASINO"  for out of town visitors (like me & my friends) to stay, play and eat at.....They really went out of their way to cater to us and to present the marketing image of a Higher Value Locals casino that savvy locals played and dined within.....and as far as I can tell, their really was some extra value at the Orleans during that era, especially on the room rate, comp frequency and dining quality.What this has to do with Today and what we are talking about in this thread is a little more complex because the Vegas of today is far larger and more diverse than even the dynamic city I witnessed during 1996 thru 2005.    

[DaBurglar]

JT I understand the math behind the bottle service. My point though was to give an example to DaBurglar that if younger people can pay for bottle service at one of those clubs or have a night out for drinks, then: there might not be as much an income disparity that he may think exists in Las Vegas. The issue of INCOME DISPARITY is a MACRO issue, and focusing on Bottle service is pointless.When i mention Income disparity, and the fact wealth is being concentrated in fewer and fewer hands each year, this is OBVIOUSLY going to impact the casino industry (which we are seeing everywhere, not just Vegas, and remember, Vegas is BETTER able to deal with this issue than all other Casino markets.)      It is intuitive.......the less money available to the greater number of people, then NON essential discretionary spending like that which includes Casinos, and gambling and entertainment and ALL That exists in gambling markets like Vegas & elsewhere, will suffer and decrease noticeably each year.     How can it not?Furthermore, it is a known trait amongst the super wealthy, that MOST of them have or want nothing to do with casinos or gambling or places like Vegas.  Certainly there are a number of "WHALES" out there for the big Vegas casinos to compete over (which they do, fiercely), but the majority of the really wealthy people are NOT big gamblers.   What this means is, the biggest and most important Vegas demographic, that of middle class-upper middle class people, along with lower middle class down to welfare,  is seeing its disposable income shrink markedly, which obviously will hurt casinos, and this has already been demonstrated (not just with the last recession either, but well beyond it as some casino markets have actually been drying up and casinos going out of business, something which prior to 2005 would never be conceived or believed!)And don't forget......the very nature of casinos themselves, the gambling portion anyway, is to take peoples' money on a large scale while giving back a significantly smaller amount, and repeating this cycle/process.    This will, overtime, logically start to concentrate MONEY disproportionately into a casino's hands at the expense of society/people......this is why one of the BAD sides of casino development in communities is that over time, casinos can actually take MUCH more out of a local community that what they put back into it (and I don't mean TAXES, I mean the jobs they generate and the economic activity that the surroundings of a casino generate)